Castles&Crusades: Is this "The One"?

[amethal]

Some tips!:
Apologies if I've already mentioned these to you before...

1. Ability Checks are only used for resolving something interesting! The default assumption is a competent adventurer attempting a check has a 50/50 chance of success, so most PC actions should be resolved with common sense.

2. The most common houserule (that actually alters the game) I've seen is changing the Challenge Bases (12/18) to fit the CK's style of game. 12/15 or 10/15 are popular choices. I use the Tertiary Optional rule in the CKG which allows players to select 3 Primes, 2 Secondaries, and 1 Tertiary Attributes, so 12/15/18. I think this makes PCs much more well rounded.

3. Use one Challenge Base: 18. Primes give a +6. Mechanically this is exactly the same, but so much easier to use.

4. Check out the rules for Class and a Half leveling! Essentially, it allows players to gain levels in two classes (a Full class and a Half class) at the expense of needing extra Exp. The rules are so simple and clever, you'll wonder why other systems don't use it.

5. If you want Saving Throws similar to AD&D, just lower the Challenge Base by 1 every other Level.

To expand on what Jahydin said.

My understanding is that C&C is still in its "first edition" and probably always will be, so whenever someone comes up with a cool new way of doing something, it goes in as an "optional rule".

So if you prefer some of the optional rules (for example, I couldn't imagine playing without using number 3, above) then don't feel they are in any way less "official" or "it can't be a better rule otherwise it would be the default".

 

[johndesmarais]

In general, I like C&C a lot - it’s what I’m using for my current Forgotten Realms campaign. My biggest complaint with it is how they want to math to work regarding rolls using Primary stats. As written, the game expects the Target Number to be changed, but I think the game flows better if TN stays the same and the players adds the modifier to their roll instead. That way the Keeper doesn’t need to keep up with who has what as Primaries.

 

[rgard]

4. Check out the rules for Class and a Half leveling! Essentially, it allows players to gain levels in two classes (a Full class and a Half class) at the expense of needing extra Exp. The rules are so simple and clever, you'll wonder why other systems don't use it.

Yep, my next campaign will be 1E and this will be an option for the characters.

 

[GothmogIV]

In general, I like C&C a lot - it’s what I’m using for my current Forgotten Realms campaign. My biggest complaint with it is how they want to math to work regarding rolls using Primary stats. As written, the game expects the Target Number to be changed, but I think the game flows better if TN stays the same and the players adds the modifier to their roll instead. That way the Keeper doesn’t need to keep up with who has what as Primaries.

Yeah, that's an odd feature. It seems easier for game master to just set a DC and let the player roll then add their modifier. Like...this seems pretty straightforward to me:

 

[Jahydin]

Yeah, that's an odd feature. It seems easier for game master to just set a DC and let the player roll then add their modifier. Like...this seems pretty straightforward to me:

View attachment 342863

If thinking in DC terms is helpful, DM Samuel (Troll Discord Mod) pinned this conversion:
DC 1-10 = CL 0
DC 11-15 = CL 2
DC 16-20 = CL 4
DC 21-25 = CL 6
DC 26-30 = CL 8

 

[Jahydin]

In general, I like C&C a lot - it’s what I’m using for my current Forgotten Realms campaign. My biggest complaint with it is how they want to math to work regarding rolls using Primary stats. As written, the game expects the Target Number to be changed, but I think the game flows better if TN stays the same and the players adds the modifier to their roll instead. That way the Keeper doesn’t need to keep up with who has what as Primaries.

It can even be made easier by pre-calculating bonuses into the "Target Number" before hand.
That way, the player only needs to roll and note the difference; that's the CL it would beat.

For instance, A level 4, 16 (+2) Dex Prime Rogue would have a TN of 6.
If they rolled a 12, they could just say, "I beat CL 6."

And for CKs who don't like to use specific CLs, this has the added benefit of letting them think, "Hmmmm, good enough."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I ran C&C for my group in lieu of 4E, having run out of enthusiasm for 3E around the time WotC did.

From a vibes standpoint, it absolutely matches up with 1E, which I cut my teeth on, and it has a number of nice innovations, like class-and-a-half leveling, which lets you take a spell-less paladin or ranger and give it spells like they get in 3E or 5E -- or do something wilder, like create a ranger with cleric spells (which I had in my campaign), an assassin with illusionist spells or even stranger combinations (barbarians that cast druid spells!).

That said, it's one of the first retroclones, and it shows. The Troll Lords are committed to their very clunky SIEGE engine, which doesn't do anything standard d20 resolution systems don't do, except more confusingly and requiring more discussion about how it works seemingly every single time. Other than the fact that they clearly feel proprietary about their baby, C&C would be greatly enhanced by ripping out the SIEGE engine, replacing with the standard d20 resolution system, and never looking back.

The Troll Lords are also notoriously bad copy editors, and every book, no matter how many editions in, is going to have a shocking number of typos and grammatical errors and even errors of fact. (The CKG erroneously stated, when I owned it, that all rivers flow towards the equator, which is not remotely true.) There was even a period when two of their monster books accidentally had different versions of the grue, because there wasn't anyone doing a good job with editorial oversight in house (or, better yet, working off a master database of monsters, which I do for myself with my homebrew critters).

5E lifted/had parallel evolution with a lot of C&C's design innovations, but has an overall higher power level. But C&C has essentially stayed the same since the early 2000s. That's either great or vaguely appalling, depending on your tastes.

They're nice folks and I don't regret the years and money spent on C&C, but there are other OSR rulesets out there that work better for me now, although it's nice to know C&C is still chugging along, producing good neo-1E content.

 

[ThrorII]

I was big into C&C between 2008 and 2014. I really do love the system (except the SIEGE mechanic). We dumped SIEGE for a straight DC check, adding relevant character levels and attribute bonuses (most saves were DC10 +spell level or monster HD). If I was not playing B/X-OSE, I'd be playing C&C.

 

[Retreater]

I've found the best way to describe the SIEGE engine is "Imagine THAC0 for every die roll."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've found the best way to describe the SIEGE engine is "Imagine THAC0 for every die roll."

Someone call 911. I think the Troll Lords have just been murdered.