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Caves of Chaos/Core - Do They Support The Three Tiers?

Do the rules allow you the freedom to play D&D how you like to play D&D?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 66.7%
  • No

    Votes: 13 33.3%

Caster

Explorer
I haven't seen this come up on the forum explicitly but my bad if it has.

I don't want to cut-and-paste from the adventure so I'll paraphrase from the big highlighted text box on Page 2 of the PDF with the title "What is this Adventure Testing?"

Caves of Chaos is playtesting how well the core rules support various styles of gameplay. Does the core give you the freedom to play D&D how you like to play it?

Also, it is NOT testing how PC's and Monsters balance against each other (as the design process is still in progress) although we should note any major issues that come up in the testing for future review.

So, with that specific criteria in mind, how about a poll.

Dave
 
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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I'm not sure how I am supposed to answer the poll. This is a play-test, not a complete set of rules...so it really isn't intended to "let us play D&D the way we want to." The intent is to test out a few elements of the game and provide feedback. Right now, the playtest seems to be focused on a few combat-related abilities, the ability-based skills, and the new save throw system.
 

Caster

Explorer
Not according to the opening paragraphs of The Caves of Chaos. They do want our feedback on this very question and so probably feel that it is answerable by the adventure, provided ruleset, and pregens.

Allow me to amplify by paraphrasing specific suggested playing styles:

- Hack & Slash Battles
- Political Negotiations
- Cloak And Dagger Deceptions
- Dungeon Crawls
- Guerilla Warfare
- Comedic Interactions

They also encourage playing it out as either a grid-based experience and/or Theater Of The Mind.

Although we are intended to keep notes on other elements as well, the adventure wants to explore if it can support many different style of play.

If no, then is it the rules or the adventure design getting in the way? What did your group change to suit your tastes? And what element didn't work out so well.

But to make it simple for the poll - Do the rules allow you the freedom to play D&D how you like to play D&D?

I have yet to playtest with my own group as of yet, so I'm interested in what others' experiences are regarding this specific question.

Dave
 
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Yora

Legend
If I could get the material for all classes, races, Backgrounds, feats, spells, and monsters, I think this game would be pretty much the perfect thing for me to run my campaigns in.
They can still screw up classes and spells, but the system looks all right for me.

I want to run games which are focused on developing the story of the events between the PCs and NPCs, and I need rules to determine the outcomee of situations where the PCs are taking risks and it would not be automatically be assumed that things work out as they planned it. The most important parts of combat are if it starts or not, and who is still standing at the end. These things are important to the story, what happens between them is not, and the rules should be easy to use and not stall things for to long.
And these rules look quite capable to do that.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Good Question. This should be asked more often. I think it's the #1 part of this play test's first release.

I voted no. My game doesn't use Checks, Conflict (opposing checks), or unbounded DC scores. It's all about pattern progressions and matrix expressions. That means many of the character powers are out of place for me. Also, instead of having depth in play due to the interrelation of all the rules, I'm now only getting complication due to amassing greater quantity of of rules.

IOW, I'm not looking for a game about collecting more and more abilities, but a game that allows my players to tell me what they want to do and gives me a skeletal rules structure with which I can flesh out mechanics for each and every desire behind the screen.

The current iteration doesn't look like I can do this as a playstyle without a major overall, albeit far less of an overhaul than any other D&D in the last dozen years.

Mearls is right about dropping Background & Themes for an older feel. However, all of that needs to be added back in (usually under the personality, background, whatever write up) for personalized characters. EDIT: Gygax called it "establishing the characters".
 

Caster

Explorer
Thanks howandwhy99, Yora, and clevernickname. From the lack of responses despite quite a few views on this thread it seems we are in the minority regarding what we consider to be the most important part of the playtest. Mainly, do the rules adequately support the Three Tiers in the sample adventure?

I chalk this up to the Can't-See-The-Forest-Thru-The-Trees Syndrome. Everyone here is sooo excited to put in their two cents on the various systems that they are missing out on the bigger picture, which is really the only thing the designers are asking us to evaluate at this stage. The granularity phase will come along later.

Dave
 

Agamon

Adventurer
Yeah, it seems like some people are getting stuck on details, and that's exactly what WotC doesn't want at this point.
 

Caster

Explorer
I changed the title of the thread to draw more responses but don't believe it conflicts with the poll question as worded. If anyone thinks it does I can change the wording on that too, right?

The good news is that so far 3/4's of us seem to think the new rules DO allow us to play D&D how we like to play it and that is encouraging indeed.

Dave
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Mostly.

I had some trouble adapting it to a playstyle that de-emphasized combat, because there weren't a whole lot of creative mechanical options for the character to use outside of combat. There was some, which is why it mostly worked, but there's not enough. I felt like I was winging it without a safety net more often than I liked.

Also, feet measurements were useless to me, so that's a lot of weirdness I could use in a more abstract language.
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
Yes, the playtest absolutely gave me the freedom to play D&D the way that I like to play it.

As the DM, that means that I can present an adventure as a set of situations and obstacles and then let the players decide how they want to approach. I prefer it if the player's don't choose to attack everything on sight, as it bores me. If they do, I usually have the monsters response appropriately, instead of waiting in their designated encounter areas to be methodically dispatched as the PCs work their way through one room at a time.

In this playtest, the players were able to engage in all three "pillars" of gameplay:

[sblock]
The players waited to enter the ravine until midday when the sun was highest in the sky, to take advantage of the daylight sensitivity that most of the humanoid monsters possess. This allowed them to scout out the ravine (using the clumps of trees as cover) and find all of the ground-level cave entrances without being spotted. Upon re-reading the Caves of Chaos booklet, only the kobolds are identified as having this sensitivity; I had just assumed it was still there (looks like goblins lost it in 3e).

They explored the ogre's cave first, as its entrance was hidden from the view of any lookouts on the other side of the ravine. When they encountered the ogre (counting his coins, which took a long time because he had to keep starting over), they tried to negotiate with him, but ultimately refused to pay what he was asking for so they fought their first battle of the session and won. They posted a lookout at the cave entrance while the others searched the cave, in case anybody came to investigate. I had a band of six goblins go to investigate from outside, so as not to reveal the secret entrance to their lair from the ogre's cave. The PCs found the secret door, so they slipped through and shut it just in time.

After sending a patrol out the front entrance to investigate, the goblin chief and a few of his guards returned to their side of the secret door in order to keep an eye on the situation; unfortunately for them, the PCs had already come through and were waiting for them. Instead of risking a fight with an entire tribe, the PCs proudly proclaimed themselves the slayers of the ogre and demanded that the goblins put down their weapons. My wife's fighter rolled a 20 on her Intimidate check, so the goblins decided that attacking the ogre-slayers would not end well for them.

The PCs got some information from the goblins about what other tribes lived in the caves and where their lair entrances were. The goblins, seeing an opportunity, also told the PCs about the hobgoblins above them who bully them and steal their supplies and treasure. They exaggerated the amount of treasure stolen by the hobgoblins, of course. The PCs asked how supplies kept disappearing from the storeroom without them noticing, and the goblins didn't know, so the PCs asked the goblins if they could inspect the storeroom, suspecting a secret entrance that the goblins were unaware of.

The PCs found the secret door in the storeroom and cautiously entered the hobgoblin lair. They found the sleeping hobgoblin guard near the secret door and bound him for questioning. Their attempts to intimidate him failed, and he yelled to alert the others of the intruders. He promptly died. Four hobgoblins soon came to investigate. When one called out to the guard, the rogue made a bluff check to try to impersonate the hobgoblin's voice. He managed to succeed on that, but wasn't able to answer their questions convincingly, so two of the hobgoblins rushed to get reinforcements while the other two stood firm at the top of the stairs. The rogue cut off the dead hobgoblin's head, and the wizard cast light inside its mouth, then the rogue threw the head out into the hallway while the wizard used mage hand to levitate the head into the air, trying to scare the hobgoblins. It didn't scare them, but I ruled that the way the light was directed towards the hobgoblins made it such that they couldn't really see where the rogue was behind the head, granting him advantage when throwing his daggers.

This turned into the longest combat of the session (about 20 minutes), with four hobgoblins returning along with the warchief. They inflicted heavy damage on the party, bringing the rogue, cleric and fighter down to about 2 hp each, but the party was ultimately victorious.

The party retreated back to the goblin lair in order to rest up and heal. I thought about having the goblins betray them and attack them during the night, but decided that the goblins saw the PCs as their best chance of eliminating their hobgoblin rivals and would save betrayal for later.

After healing up, the party returned to the hobgoblin lair through the secret door to find that the doors at the top of the stairs had been barricaded from the inside. The two strongest PCs succeeded on strength checks to break down one of the doors, where they quickly dispatched the guards that the hobgoblins had placed there -- the guards behind the other door fell back to the armory when the PCs broke down the one door. The rogue found the secret door leading into the armory and opened it, to find three hobgoblins with their longbows ready and aimed at him. The rogue quickly found himself at negative hit points. We ran the combat between the other PCs and the three hobgoblins without the grid, resolving it in under two minutes.

[/sblock]

We played for three hours, including a number of short breaks for snacks and to put in a new movie or video game to keep a toddler and a six year-old entertained. So probably about 2.5 hours total play time.

As a group, the players were able to engage in a significant amount of exploration, fight in 5 combat encounters, interact with NPCs, avoid unnecessary battles, and do some creative problem-solving. In about 2 1/2 hours of play time, we were able to play through a significant portion of the adventure (despite all of us learning a new set of rules) and experience a variety of gameplay "modes." Nobody got bored because one particular activity was taking too long, and nobody had to sit out and watch everyone else play for more than a couple of minutes. Everybody felt like they were able to meaningfully contribute to the game. We didn't have to stop the game to look up rules or recalculate modifiers.

In short, the system was lightweight and flexible enough to allow me to react, in the moment, to whatever the players came up with, without having to spend an inordinate amount of time on any single activity.

I don't think I can ask for any more than that. This is exactly how I want D&D to play.
 

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