Celtonia

[The Grumpy Celt]

What would a Celtic society with 19th technology look like?

Assume, for a moment, that Celtic society had not more or less been stamped out (by the Romans and then British). How do you think it would have developed with another 1,000-plus years of time to grow?

Modern France is more the product of a Roman legacy than a Gaulish one. Modern Britain is more the product of a Roman and a Germanic legacy than an Icini (or any of the other local Celtic tribes) one. Modern Ireland is the product of centuries of rule by the British, though it is trying to redefine itself.

This is not an attempt to start a discussion of the rightness or wrongness of any of these points of history or of the quality of those people or what they did to each other. Please God don’t take it off on some lame tangent.

What I am discussing here is a society that is the product of a (mostly pure) Celtic legacy, in the same way modern Italy has a (mostly pure) Roman legacy.

I am trying to puzzle out this for a game setting.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I'm not sure there's really enough information for a good treatment. I mean in large they were utterly crushed by the Romans even in Britain, their religious traditions stamped out, leadership emulated the Romans that weren't destroyed.

At best I think you're looking at a very low-fi thing ressurected mainly from stereotypes created later after they were gone.

EDIT: But I'm going through some books now to see if I can form a coherent idea to work from.

 

[Greylock]

Poul Anderson has a good treatment of a modern, Celtic society in his Time Patrol collection of stories. Where Celts were the ascendant nation/culture in Europe, discovered America, etc.

Love the books, great story, but, he doesn't paint a rosy picture of the Celtic Modern World.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

...he doesn't paint a rosy picture of the Celtic Modern World.

I'm not looking for happy. Which book is it?

 

[Greylock]

It's either Time Patrol, or The Shield of Time. The tales were originally a series of short stories, and there are, I think, eleven. They are compiled in these two books. Historically, it's all over the place, in different places and whens. I cannot recall which of the books dealt specifically with the Celtic America. The books are commonly the only two I see on the shelves of major chains in paperback, and they are both excellent, so go ahead and pick up both, if it pleases you. You'll find yourself mining ideas from Anderson right and left.

 

[Dioltach]

Assume, for a moment, that Celtic society had not more or less been stamped out (by the Romans and then British).

I hate to nitpick, but in fact it was the British (Celts) who were conquered/dispossessed by the English. Read Lachamon's Brut, where in his narrative about King Arthur he keeps referring to the British, except right at the end, when he says that one day Arthur will return to help the English. For the record, Lachamon was one of the Anglo-Saxon conquerors ...

One thing I remember reading about Celtic culture was that they ruled most of Europe at one point, but that the true Celts were the ruling class (kings, priests, important warriors), while the majority of the population was made up of Germans and other peoples. That was reason why the Celtic 'empire' vanished so quickly and more or less silently, and was immediately replaced by other nations.

 

[Nyaricus]

Well, from what I know about the Celts...

There was a warrior aristocracy which was at the top of the pack in society, then there were the three classes of priesthood (Druids, Bards and Vates) and then everyone else. Most governments were in the form of Kingdoms, and the Kingship was likely hereditary.

Religion was polytheistic, and the way the priesthood worked out was the the Druids kinda looked after everything, while the Bards spread the great cycles of myth, and the Vates (prophets) kinda made sure nothing was messed up and the gods were appeased.

Women in many cases were just as respected as men, and many participated in battle alongside men. They could hold Kingship.

So, if you're specifically looking at the Insular Celts (those on the isles of Great Britain) then you'd likely have a society who repelled the advances of the Romans in the early days. "Arthur" might have been a legendary Celtic warrior who led the greatest of these battles, and was the first appointed king, and who all other subsequent kings claim they descended from From there, they also repelled the Angles and the Saxons and the Vikings and all their buddies in the 9th and 10th centuries. While the Crusades began in Western Europe, the Celtic peoples of Celtica ("Great Britain") were still firm in their polytheism, and held these traditions above all others, and thus would have held themselves above those "silly Christians" who went halfway across the world to their holy land, only to be rebuked.

Backing up, we see that the Celts are quite the isolationist culture. They repel any attempts at conversion, and thus draw the ire of the Christian Church. The repel any would-be invaders, and thus hold themselves highly as warriors.

Their Bards would have kept up a fantastic oral tradition throughout the absence of the Roman Empire and its many scribes, and thus they might have had high call in other countries, and thus the celts are highly respected for these orators. It might also inspire several other orders.

IRL, The first university was Oxford in Oxford England, but as early as 849 there was a university as such in Istanbul/Constantinople. Thus, these Celtic Bards might've formed a university in Celtica as early as 950 or so. From there, you might have Celtica as a center of higher learning and a source of ancient Latin literature which pilgrims and travelling scholars might come to see from all over the known world, although this would likely draw the ire of the now humongous Christian Church. You might even have it that some Crusades made their aim the conversion of the Celts, and thus they are now a Christian society, as opposed to polytheistic.

Another thing would be that Celtica would be much more liberate then other folk in the middle ages, as women are held to be the equals of men. This might mean that close Western European countries might be influenced to become more liberal at earlier stages as well, since this changes the worldveiw of most Middle Ages folk.

Ah, now cometh the Middle Ages. Italy rediscovered the process for the creation of gold coins, and this practice is largely resurrected. The printing press is also created, and knowledge truely begins to spread. Bards might come to see this new invention, and create diagrams with the intention of re-creating it and bringing it home. Scotland had one of the first public education systems in Western Europe IRL, and this would only speed the process. While in 1633 Scotland began its public education system, you might even be able to back that up by a hundred years or so, what with them already having universities for many years before that.

I'm gettign quite tired for now, but there are some considerations which lead up to the pre-Reformation era of the 15th/16th or so century

cheers,
--N

 

[S'mon]

The British are Celts, by definition. Try English.

 

[S'mon]

Modern Wales, Scotland and Ireland are mostly Celtic. Scotland in particular was never crushed by the English. Now, east Scotland especially had a lot of Anglo-Saxon influence, but it's still primarily Celtic. Actually, genetically speaking even the English are more than half Celtic, certainly on female-line descent.

I don't think there's really a good answer to your question, but maybe looking at differences between Celtic and (pretty closely related) Anglo-Germanic culture would help. Both are warrior cultures. Both value learning, the Celts somewhat more likely to hive it off to a priestly caste, but they also value individual verbal ability - tale telling, battle boasts, etc - somewhat more than the A-Gs. Both give high status to women compared to Mediterranean cultures, but Celts more than A-Gs. Celts are more hierarchical, A-Gs traditionally more democratic, but Celtic hierarchy is more merit-based than 'divine right'. Again, both are really more similar than different, when compared to mediterranean or near-eastern cultures.

Edit: James Webb's "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish shaped America" has some good insights into the Celtic temperament.

 

[Sirith]

From what I know, the Celts who lived in Cisalpine Gaul (the northern part of Italy, south of the Alps) were pretty urbanized by the time the Romans came to conquer them. The same was already happening in Gaul itself by the time the Romans. The oppida (sg. oppidum, lage settlements defended by a stone and wood wall) were becoming more and more important as centres of power, trade and organized, mostly because the population continued to grow. In Alesia, for example, was an important major trading centre. In short, they started to organize themselves in a more political way, in states, with institutions. By the way, these states were still bases on tribal affiliation.

So if I had to guess what the Gauls would have been like without the Romans coming over and conquering them, I'd say they would have followed the general idea of what was already happening: they would have become 'civilized' in a manner we recognize in the Romans. Perhaps with distinct differences, but the general idea would have been the same.

In Britain the developments were less evolved than in Gaul by the time Caesar came. However, here there were also oppida started to emerge, coinage started to be used. The process was not as evolved, but they might have gone on doing what was already happening like in Gaul. This is the south of Britain though, which after Caesars attacks was starting to Romanize through trade and contacts with the continent even before the Romans came again and actually settled in Britain.

About the Anglo-Saxon invasions, I'm afraid I didn't take much note in the course I took at university, and I don't feel like reading it all over again . Try Haywoods Historical Atlas of the Celtic World, if you're interested in an overview of what the Celts were up to throughout history.