Lorthanoth
Explorer
Modern genetic research has shown that we do still live in a Celtic Britain, albeit one that differs from pop perceptions of 'Celtic'.
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Celtonia
- Thread starter The Grumpy Celt
- Start date
Phlebas
First Post
Katherine Kerr books show a celtic evolved to medieval society - might be a good baseline and since whe has elves / dwarves as well ............
Scottish history is mainly celtic as well and thats didn't evolve too differently from the rest of the british isles, scandinavia or northern europe. the biggest difference i can see in a fantasy world would be the absence of a cross-culture monotheism and playing 'what if' for the absence of christianity in europe is well established past time
If you want to stress the differences - use tribal affiliations, the concept of kingship not being directly inherited but elected from a small pool of nobles, a priesthood controlling the mysteries of religion and a tendency to fight amongst themselves unless there is an outsider to gang up against.
Funnily enough i was having a chat with a colleague from Sri Lanka recently and he was highlighting that their, the 'clan' you come from still has a major impact on what job you do even though there's officially no caste system as such - thats always struck me as something you'd see where tribe is more important than nation and the 'celtic' stereotype would seem to work well with that.
(There's a theory going around that the celts started off in the middle eastern steps thousands of years ago and migrated through southern russia to europe picking up a distinctive culture on the way - effectively celtic culture was already contaminated by germanic / roman ideas before it even arrived in the british isles, and then met native british (pictish), scandinavian and all the other influences you get in multi-cultural europe....)
Scottish history is mainly celtic as well and thats didn't evolve too differently from the rest of the british isles, scandinavia or northern europe. the biggest difference i can see in a fantasy world would be the absence of a cross-culture monotheism and playing 'what if' for the absence of christianity in europe is well established past time
If you want to stress the differences - use tribal affiliations, the concept of kingship not being directly inherited but elected from a small pool of nobles, a priesthood controlling the mysteries of religion and a tendency to fight amongst themselves unless there is an outsider to gang up against.
Funnily enough i was having a chat with a colleague from Sri Lanka recently and he was highlighting that their, the 'clan' you come from still has a major impact on what job you do even though there's officially no caste system as such - thats always struck me as something you'd see where tribe is more important than nation and the 'celtic' stereotype would seem to work well with that.
(There's a theory going around that the celts started off in the middle eastern steps thousands of years ago and migrated through southern russia to europe picking up a distinctive culture on the way - effectively celtic culture was already contaminated by germanic / roman ideas before it even arrived in the british isles, and then met native british (pictish), scandinavian and all the other influences you get in multi-cultural europe....)
The Grumpy Celt said:
Of course, Italy doesn't have a pure legacy either, since the northern part was dominated by Germans, and the southern regions were part of the Arab empire. Naples is essentially an Arab city where people speak a dialect of Italian, and many Sicilian names are simply Italicized Arab names. Sicilians even eat couscous!
Phlebas
First Post
Clavis said:
Ireland was raided and settled by vikings (who founded Dublin) as far back as the roman era, and conquered by the Normans in the early middle ages (Prince John of Robin hood fame was the king of Ireland). Irish clans also invaded / were invaded by scottish and welsh clans throughout their history, (The Scotii were originally irish, a lot of ulster is descended from scottish settlers). And although not christianised by force, still heavily influenced by roman catholicism to the present day. (the celtic branch of the church was threatened by excommunication at the conclave of whitby (i thnk) unless they confirmed to the standard)
unfortunately, there is no part of europe that can call itself pure anything - its all a mish-mash of cultural influences as far back as you can see. None of which stops the OP using it for inspiration, but a lot of the basics of irish / celtic culture are fundamentally no different from the rest of europe at that time ......
Perhaps "distinctly" would have been a better word than "purely." Ireland did have a lot of what I was looking for, until the 16th and 17th centuries when most of its "distinctly" Celtic culture has trampled by the English lords (end of the brehon laws and so forth). What would it be like if that had not happened?
Phlebas
First Post
Tanistry would seem a fertile area to develop an alternative societal structure. Because it has an element of democracy (limited as it may be) then you could see it continuing into an industrial society. and the frequent bloody fights might be seen as a small price to pay for a succession of strong rulers.
we should remember that celtic society was very heirarchical, including slavery, so you will have to decide wether that survived or evolved out the same way that feudalism did
Celtic art is also distinctive - imagine cities designed on spirals / knots rather than grids and victorian ironwork replaced by twisted metal strands. gives a whole different feel to the hardware around you.
we should remember that celtic society was very heirarchical, including slavery, so you will have to decide wether that survived or evolved out the same way that feudalism did
Celtic art is also distinctive - imagine cities designed on spirals / knots rather than grids and victorian ironwork replaced by twisted metal strands. gives a whole different feel to the hardware around you.
Phlebas said:
What are Roman times by your standards? As far as I know, the Dál Riata (an Ulster tribe, indeed called Scotti - 'raiders') were settling in Scotland around the 4-5th century AD, the Viking's first known raid was about 795 AD. Together with the Dál Riata, several other Irish tribes tried to get a foothold in Cornwall/Devon, Wales, northern England and the Isle of Man, around the same time, so 4-5th century.
The Romans never went to Ireland, and they left Britain 410 AD (when the Britons left the Roman empire, after the Romans had withdrawn troops for quite a while before that). That was also the time of the Anglo-Saxon raids (yeah, I looked it up
) and the Pictish raids from nowadays Scotland.So ehm, the Romans were gone or leaving anyway by the time the Irish and Anglo-Saxons started settling in Britain, and the Vikings came a few hundred years after that.
Only around 1170 AD I believe did the Anglo-Norman invasion begin.
Grue
First Post
Heh... it's a hard one to wrap the noggin around. For one, to bring them up to steam age technology some of the classic (heh... romanticized) notions of Celtic culture will have to be altered or dropped. 19th century technology is the story of money and finance. You might have a impossible string of Celtic geniuses who come up with some great inventions\discoveries but without finance they'd only be toys.. curiosities too expensive to widely adopt, and almost certainly no impetus to invent them in the first place.
Assuming you don't want Celtonia to be some backwater hinterland, I think you'd pretty much have to weaken or destroy the clans by developing urban centers and also instilling a reasonable belief in the rule of law. Wide scale complex financial and trading relationships don't happen if a merchant can't reasonably expect that his contracts will be honored... that everyone is (relatively) subject equally under the law so the merchant doesn't have to worry as much that he'll get screwed over by some local priest or king. That would also mean weakening the warrior caste somewhat....no more raiding the neighbor's cattle (for honor and profit) and no more feuding.
Still scratching my head a bit of how to get there without turning them into Romano-Celts (the German tribes were heavily influenced by Rome as was nearly everyone else they came in contact with). As a first step in the alternative Celt history, I'd whack Rome in the Punic Wars. Carthage levels Rome. Maybe Hannibal gets some help from a Celtic tribe or two. To prevent a Carthaginian Empire from replacing a Roman one I'd probably just have them splinter up after a few rebellions and revolts (Carthage was more of a sea\trading empire anyway).
I would also keep Christianity a subset of Judaism and maybe a fringe cult with the Greeks. That could also have the effect that Mohammed and the Calphs never happen. Otherwise Islam would most likely tear through a more fractured Europe... the Balkans may hold out (doubtful without Constantinople in the way), but without Roman influence I doubt you get another Charles Martel to block the march into France. Even with super Celts as a replacement, the East is going to outweigh Europe both in population and economic figures for a bit (or alot) longer than our own timeline if Rome is taken out of the picture.
I would found the proto-Celtonia by using a Great Leader who gets the idea of conquering the neighbors and somehow figuring out a way of keeping it together after his death. Maybe changing the priesthood a bit to become his bureaucracy of sorts. Offhand investing the druids to keep his laws (and not arbitrate them) and formalizing at least a faction bards to keep and protect knowledge (or histories at least). From there I think the Celts may develop up some bickering city-states, then maybe a kingdom, then empire (to spread the system around a bit and solidify it into the culture), then successor kingdoms, and finally nation-states.
Assuming you don't want Celtonia to be some backwater hinterland, I think you'd pretty much have to weaken or destroy the clans by developing urban centers and also instilling a reasonable belief in the rule of law. Wide scale complex financial and trading relationships don't happen if a merchant can't reasonably expect that his contracts will be honored... that everyone is (relatively) subject equally under the law so the merchant doesn't have to worry as much that he'll get screwed over by some local priest or king. That would also mean weakening the warrior caste somewhat....no more raiding the neighbor's cattle (for honor and profit) and no more feuding.
Still scratching my head a bit of how to get there without turning them into Romano-Celts (the German tribes were heavily influenced by Rome as was nearly everyone else they came in contact with). As a first step in the alternative Celt history, I'd whack Rome in the Punic Wars. Carthage levels Rome. Maybe Hannibal gets some help from a Celtic tribe or two. To prevent a Carthaginian Empire from replacing a Roman one I'd probably just have them splinter up after a few rebellions and revolts (Carthage was more of a sea\trading empire anyway).
I would also keep Christianity a subset of Judaism and maybe a fringe cult with the Greeks. That could also have the effect that Mohammed and the Calphs never happen. Otherwise Islam would most likely tear through a more fractured Europe... the Balkans may hold out (doubtful without Constantinople in the way), but without Roman influence I doubt you get another Charles Martel to block the march into France. Even with super Celts as a replacement, the East is going to outweigh Europe both in population and economic figures for a bit (or alot) longer than our own timeline if Rome is taken out of the picture.
I would found the proto-Celtonia by using a Great Leader who gets the idea of conquering the neighbors and somehow figuring out a way of keeping it together after his death. Maybe changing the priesthood a bit to become his bureaucracy of sorts. Offhand investing the druids to keep his laws (and not arbitrate them) and formalizing at least a faction bards to keep and protect knowledge (or histories at least). From there I think the Celts may develop up some bickering city-states, then maybe a kingdom, then empire (to spread the system around a bit and solidify it into the culture), then successor kingdoms, and finally nation-states.
Lorthanoth
Explorer
Norman Conquest - 1066
As every British schoolboy used to know.
As every British schoolboy used to know.
