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Challenge my players!

Engilbrand

First Post
Use some magic that links enemies to PCs. As the PCs are healed, so are the enemies. Maybe they draw all healing magic into themselves. The players can't heal from the spell the Cleric cast, but the enemy does. Insinuate that this is the beginning of something that can grow larger. They'll probably reevaluate their stuff. I don't understand why the entire group would want healing abilities. While I know that survival is good, I wouldn't want to sacrifice what I can do to assist someone else unless that's the point.
 

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Dr_Sage

First Post
The best advice without messing with any rules: make them fight for something other tham their lives.

Examples:

1) They fighting to protect a village with 200 people (most of them minions tecnicaly) from a demonic horde or something. The creatures are not targeting the heroes, but common folk. If they care about people they will get involved. The most interesting Superman stories are the ones that do not have cryptonite involved.
variations with hostages helps as well.

2) Mixing a WoW concept with the time suggested above: DPS race. Monsters get stronger every round while the fight keep going either becuse more monsters come into the fight or becuse they "enrage" after 2 rounds or so.

3) Epic characters could/should be more ionvolved in continental politics. And if they cant or would not fight? If a mob of inocent people is dominated and is going on rampage? Will they exterminate them?



PS: If they are evil just invert 1) and 3) above.

I hope that helps!
 

Flipguarder

First Post
I had a great idea for a monster that just negated turns. Any time a turn happens and he has this power recharged he can just wait til the turn ends and immediately start the turn over everything the way it was at the beginning of the turn, any resources used are lost.

For instance.
Player: Im going to use this power that lowers their ac by 4
Player:Im going to minor action gain combat advantage at them
Player:Im going to switch my move into another minor to gain +2 to my next attack
Player:Im going to action point to use my most powerful daily. SWEET I CRIT. I do 220 damage!
DM: Ok now start your turn over... none of that happened, you lost an action point, and any encounter powers you used.
PLAYER :CRAP!

This will have the double effect of negating novas and irritating the everloving crap out of your players.
 

Markn

First Post
I currently run for a group of four players that started at 1st level when 4th Edition first came out. They are now 26th Level and have more options to bring to bear against any given encounter than I can sufficiently prepare for. The primary problem comes from escalation of healing.

Every character in my group can heal as a primary class ability or has taken multiclass feats and powers that allow healing. They have so much healing available that it is difficult for me to threaten my players in combat without making the combat take an unreasonably long amount of time.

Welcome to my world. Your group sounds a bit worse than mine, but I essentially have the same issue. Healing is too plentiful and there is so much of it that no fight is a threat.

Some things I have done that had some effect were to use the following (keep in mind we are only at level 16 but I'm sure you can find similar creatures):

-mind fliayers kill at 0. Nice surprise to those who aren't familiar with it.
-swallow them - I used a reconcepted purple worm that worked similar to Demogorgon from MM2. Swallowing sets a time limit for the PCs to kill the creature because there are very few ways to escape being swallowed.
-Oblivion Wraith combined with damaging terrain. I had an encounter with an oblivion wraith whose aura prevented people from using healing surges and combined it with terrain that did some damage at the beggining of each players turn. This scared the crap out of the PCs when they couldn't trigger their healing.
-Throw many creatures at the group that can drop players to 0 in an instance. The bodak comes to mind. This was probably the least effective of the options but it still scared them because they weren't sure how many times I could pull it off.
-Throw the encounter level system out the window and go with gut. I've been doing that a bit more and more and the fights have been ending up more exciting. Not sure why that is but its been working. You need to trust your judgement on this and be willing to fudge some stuff if necessary until you get the right feel.
 

Ryujin

Legend
A ritual using baddie who turns one minion to a soldier each round?

Plague zombies that turn bystanders into minion enemies when they're hit?

Both are good incentive to end a battle quickly.
 

-Avalon-

First Post
My first thought was, the healers need to be able to see their targets (have LoS & LoE) to heal them... as well as be in range.

Why not construct an area that utilizes terrain to block both of those, or maybe just one?

Concept:
The players must successfully solve the puzzle in the room to open the gate to the central cell and release the prisoners. The walls in the room are Force Walls (can be seen through, and thus teleported through, but block LoE, no heals for you!) Room is large enough that the players will have to spend two or three turns navigating the maze of force walls to reach each other (as well as causing great confusion if you use teleporting lurkers or something to cause all sorts of pain)... Put switches on two or four corners of room, the switches have to be hit in the same round to open the gate.

I think this should cause sufficient fun for 26th level epic healers hehe...
 

keterys

First Post
You don't need LOS to heal, for most powers. LoE is, however, a more serious issue.

Could do some interesting things with that, ranging from splitting everyone up out of LoE initially so they have to work to get back together (which, again, leverages their multiclass healing triggers while still limiting their overall healing) to things like a splinter of the Far Realm where all allies count as enemies (affects some powers) or you only have LoE to one random ally per turn or none at all. Of course, going too overboard can be mean to the leader-types who want to buff people. But, your party is only so high level so you don't really have that many encounters left.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
The PCs in my game are only 7th level and I still have a very difficult time challenging them.

I often put them into an adventure 1 to 2 levels higher than they are, just so that the encounters are not finished in 6 rounds with few resources expended.


As a suggestion, have more foes, but not minions, hidden in a very large not so well lit combat area. Have multiple initially disguised teleport traps where the PC heads in a direction and boom, he is on the other side of the map, thus forcing distance between the PCs. ~5% of the squares should be teleport traps and they should be easily recognizable (maybe it glows faintly) once that given trap is used (either as a sender or a receiver). Before that, it should take a very high Perception roll to find one. Have the receiving locations be another teleport trap and where a PC ends up is totally random.

If you throw in some difficult terrain, that would make it difficult for the PCs to regroup. By large, I mean something 30x30 or even larger if you can manage it (50x50 would be great, but that's hard to get on some tables). Something that takes a long time to move to the other side. The first PC that steps on a trap and ends up far away with a few monsters nearby will force the other PCs to minimally move towards him and boom, they too will start teleporting. If they use his square, they will go somewhere else. A creature cannot teleport to a square that already has a creature there.

So, if you often have 5 foes in a fight, make it 8 or 10 (one level less up to two levels higher) foes for this one. If none of them are minions and the players are expecting minions in such a large encounter, it will drive them crazy figuring out which are the minions for the first few rounds until they realize that there are no minions.

Enclose the area so that spell casting PCs cannot fly up out of harms way. Don't make the ceiling more than a few feet taller than the tallest creature and don't use creatures more than one size different. Put a lot of 2x2 or 3x3 pillars in the chamber so that PCs have a tough time spotting foes, using the diagonal distance is the same horizontal and vertical aspect of 4E, etc.

With regard to the teleporting, allow the foes to control the teleport when it occurs within 2 squares of a foe. For example, if the foe does not want to teleport himself, he does not. For a foe to get far away, he merely steps on a Teleport trap square and goes exactly to the target teleport trap square he wants. If a PC tries to get away, the foe as a free action (on the PC's turn) can prevent that teleport square from working. The PC has to move further away from the foe in order to find a teleport square, hence, it is difficult to do something like: attack with slide, teleport away. Instead, it becomes attack with slide, no teleport, use move action to get to a different teleport square if one can be found.

Use 4 different types of foes and do NOT follow a theme (i.e. not all fire creatures or not all undead). Mix it up. Typically the suggestion is to not have too many different types, but this should be a bit of an Epic battle where each foe has different abilities which assist those of other foes.

1) One elite controller. Not only will he harass the PCs, but since he is elite, their anti-controller tactics might work less successfully due to his double hit points and superior attacks. His job is to slide PCs onto teleport squares.

2) 2 to 3 Lurkers. Their job is to gang up on the squishier targets and then teleport away and gang up on someone else. Keep them close to each other for group support.

3) 2 to 3 Brutes. Their job is to just pound on PCs and damage them. When they get surrounded by PCs, they too should teleport away to fight some other PCs. If they can push, all the better.

4) 2 to 3 Artillery. Their job is to attack from long range and stay out of combat. Whenever a PC gets close enough to attack them, even a ranged PC like a Ranger, they move far far away. Granted PCs like Rangers have 20 normal range, but the Artillery should use the pillars as cover and the low light as concealment to increase their defenses. Total cover should be possible in some cases.

Try to find interesting foes like Death Titans that can heal themselves or have other unique and interesting abilities. Having a few foes that can slide PCs onto the teleport squares would be good too.

And, seal off the room (e.g. a solid steel door drops at the entrance or something) so that the PCs cannot just run away.

The entire idea of this encounter is to decrease the action economy of the PCs. It does it in three ways: 1) by splitting up the group, it forces the PCs to use up actions just to move closer to allies to heal or help them in other ways, 2) by having the NPCs control nearby teleport squares, it forces a waste of a move action for PCs to teleport away when they get separated and focus fired on, 3) it often concentrates fire on a single PC in order to take that PC down quicker, and 4) PCs should be so far apart that area effect PC all encounter buffs and such rarely help all of the PCs.

Don't allow the NPCs to get bogged down by PC Defenders or Controllers if possible. Even the Brutes should try to be extremely mobile most rounds. If an NPC is in melee with one or more PCs for more than 2 rounds, he is probably there too long unless he has a PC really on the ropes. Keep all of the NPCs often on the move.


The difficult aspect of this encounter is figuring out the location of the teleport squares. One way to help with this is to not allow a teleport trap within 3 squares of another one, that way you can visualize safe zones without worrying about every square. Another is to have some form of deterministic system mapped out ahead of time.

The cool thing is that the monsters can move wherever they want and since they control the teleport traps, a PC can move on the same square a monster just moved on and still teleport away. A PC can be attacking on a teleport square, not know it, and the foe just has the PC teleport away before the PC can attack, etc.

The key to this, though, is to ask yourself every single round: "What can I do here to make it harder for the PCs and easier for the monsters?". Don't get too wrapped up in the encounter that you forget to use the trap to the best of your ability. Slide PCs onto Teleport Traps and move monsters there as often as possible so that the encounter is constantly shifting and plans that PCs make are constantly thwarted. Don't let up. On the other hand, the PC Rogue or whomever should be able to disarm a given trap with maybe a 50% chance of success.

Final note: Allow for one random location to be out of the room. This allows the monsters to escape if they are super seriously damaged (player hate escaping monsters), and it allows the monsters to send a PC out of the room so that he has to waste time coming back in (use this infrequently or as a last resort because that is the monster escape hatch). However, if that random location does randomly come up and a nearby monster is not controlling that trap, let the PC be removed from the map. That will make for an interesting moment until/unless the PC moves back on that square to come back.
 

Eric Finley

First Post
Honestly, were I you I'd (a) simply bump up every monster's damage by about 25% (d8s turn into d12s, +16dmg turns into +20, etc)... and then (b) use some of the many excellent suggestions in this thread anyway.

Or I would discuss it with my players and suggest that I want them to be more challenged... would they like to consider adding in one of the advanced Wound systems available (see the House Rules forum here for at least three examples), to make damage feel more threatening and to give them more variety in the functionality of their healing powers?
 

-Avalon-

First Post
You don't need LOS to heal, for most powers. LoE is, however, a more serious issue.

Which is why I said Force Walls... they give you line of sight (clear walls), but not Line of Effect (they being walls of course)...

It allows for teleportation, since you don't have to have line of effect really, so much as line of sight for teleportation to work... healing requires line of effect though, reducing the number of allies being healed...
 

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