D&D 5E Challenge, Optimization and Optional Rules

[Warpiglet]

Hello fellow D&D fans!

There has been a steady trickle of threads related to the game being "too easy." I have not played 5e to high levels yet. This has not necessarily been my experience in lower levels.

Additionally, I have seen a few threads including a current one about making the game more challenging.

I wondered about player choices and game difficulty. If we take single classed characters with point buy and no feats, is the game still seen as too easy? If we play vanilla, we have only two saves in which we are proficient and in most cases will have a very hard time with concentration checks.

Is the CR system predicated on this approach?

I wondered if others thought the game would be too easy with:

1. Multiclassing alone

2. Feats alone

3. Rolled stats alone

4. A combination of any two of these

Thanks for your thoughts! I do not see the point of incredible optimization if it is going to lead to boring other than as a design mini game which I know can be fun.

What I am looking for is perhaps a bit more struggle. So far I have had fun but and looking ahead to both designing and playing in campaigns which get the heart rate up a bit. Not insta death but real challenge. Would reducing options help? Or is the answer always that the DM should make things harder on their end?

 

[Illithidbix]

To some degree, Multiclassing is potentially more of a trap than helpful, with the exception of a handful of builds, but yes, some feats, if played well can be really quite strong. I actually believe the default array is expected rather than rolling.


I think a bigger issue is the CR system and Encounter Builder is designed around a set of premises that don't actually apply to lots of gaming groups:


1)The Encounter Builder system seems mostly for newbie DMs to not accidentally TPK their similarly newbie players.

If the players are experienced and knowledgeable about the rules and use this, then they'll punch above their weight. I presume most of the people who post on places like RPG.net and Enworld aren't their target audience in terms of experience.

2)The players are expected to win.
Sometimes easy to forget, but the Encounter Builder is designed to give defeatable challenges. Perhaps with more emphasis on "defeatable" than "challenge..."
This by definition is not a fair fight, since it's loaded for one side to triumph.

3) It is also part of the “Standard Adventuring Day” that assumes more encounters than players often encounter

Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day.

… In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

In my experience DMing, I don't think I ever threw my players up against a full adventuring day. So naturally they could go Nova and throw lots of resources into a fight.

Personally I can't see how a 1st-3rd level party could handle that many encounters myself, which I think is a far bigger problem.

4) The actual DMG definitions of what “Weak”, “Medium”, “Hard” and esp. “Deadly” means might not be immediately what DMs assume.

Easy. An easy encounter doesn’t tax the characters’ resources or put them in serious peril. They might lose a few hit points, but victory is pretty much guaranteed.

Medium. A medium encounter usually has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties. One or more of them might need to use healing resources.

Hard. A hard encounter could go badly for the adventurers. Weaker characters might get taken out of the fight, and there’s a slim chance that one or more characters might die.

Deadly. A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat.

Deadly is "risk of death" rather than "risk of TPK".


5) There is no set Wealth/Treasure/Magic Item guide that is assumed by the game or the Encounter Builder.
Any amount of magic items put the party above the curve.
(I am still a little unsure if this remains the case with assuming the parties fighty types have access to magic weapons.
As a very rough guideline at 6th level Monks get Ki-Empowered Strikes and Moon Druids get Primal Strikes, and also looking at the monster builder in the DMG.... I'll start a separate thread about this)


I've used the Encounter Builder and I've had fun adventures with it but use them as guidelines and feel free to ramp up the difficulty, particularly if the players have lots of resources and won't need them so much later.

Basically groups are complaining about the game being too easy when it they are effectively playing it on easy.

 

[Sacrosanct]

1)The Encounter Builder system seems mostly for newbie DMs to not accidentally TPK their similarly newbie players.
.

This is really what it comes down to, IMO. In over 35 years of DMing, every experienced DM I know always create encounters by feel. Especially when DMing your own group, because you know your group and you know how they play and the style they play and their effectiveness in being a team. The only time I (or others I know) use the CR guidelines are when we're writing something for AL, because you sort of have to.

In my own experience, many times the challenge has nothing to do with if feats were used, or multi-classing, or any other optional mechanical feature of the game. In many cases, what makes an encounter challenging is how me as the DM run the monsters. If it's just an arena style battle in a vanilla environment then it's probably less challenging. But if the monsters interact with the environment in a way that makes sense for them (depending on intelligence, etc), the same monsters can be extremely challenging.

IMO, it's part of the DM's job to be prepared. That's not just knowing rules. That's running NPCs and monsters in accordance with what their natural behavior would dictate, and it's knowing my players and creating a game that fits their style so they can have the most fun. Those other two things are just as, if not more important than knowing the rules.

Not only has D&D always been this way, but in 5e it flat out tells you on page 1 that the DM "breathes life into monsters" and chooses which rules to follow and which to change depending on your gaming table's preference. That's the DM's job.

As I said in the other thread, any DM who refuses to do those two things because they just don't want to is lazy. I mean, it's right there in the job description, and any job in the world, if you refuse to do part of it, it's lazy. You certainly can't blame the game if you're refusing to follow the guidelines. That's totally on you.

 

[Warpiglet]

This is really what it comes down to, IMO. In over 35 years of DMing, every experienced DM I know always create encounters by feel. Especially when DMing your own group, because you know your group and you know how they play and the style they play and their effectiveness in being a team. The only time I (or others I know) use the CR guidelines are when we're writing something for AL, because you sort of have to.

In my own experience, many times the challenge has nothing to do with if feats were used, or multi-classing, or any other optional mechanical feature of the game. In many cases, what makes an encounter challenging is how me as the DM run the monsters. If it's just an arena style battle in a vanilla environment then it's probably less challenging. But if the monsters interact with the environment in a way that makes sense for them (depending on intelligence, etc), the same monsters can be extremely challenging.

IMO, it's part of the DM's job to be prepared. That's not just knowing rules. That's running NPCs and monsters in accordance with what their natural behavior would dictate, and it's knowing my players and creating a game that fits their style so they can have the most fun. Those other two things are just as, if not more important than knowing the rules.

Not only has D&D always been this way, but in 5e it flat out tells you on page 1 that the DM "breathes life into monsters" and chooses which rules to follow and which to change depending on your gaming table's preference. That's the DM's job.

As I said in the other thread, any DM who refuses to do those two things because they just don't want to is lazy. I mean, it's right there in the job description, and any job in the world, if you refuse to do part of it, it's lazy. You certainly can't blame the game if you're refusing to follow the guidelines. That's totally on you.

I do believe the intelligence of monsters is often overlooked. I am not the example here or anything, but I know in my first 5e DM experience I had goblins with nets, small escape tunnels and so forth. If the characters do not take down the individual groups they will face a prepared force in the goblin king's throne room. Whether or not he escapes is another matter.

So far it sounds like a case of running it as you always have and not based on CR is the way to go.

I hate the idea of getting rid of feats for a number of reasons, so this is a more hopeful view actually.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I do believe the intelligence of monsters is often overlooked. I am not the example here or anything, but I know in my first 5e DM experience I had goblins with nets, small escape tunnels and so forth. If the characters do not take down the individual groups they will face a prepared force in the goblin king's throne room. Whether or not he escapes is another matter.

So far it sounds like a case of running it as you always have and not based on CR is the way to go.

I hate the idea of getting rid of feats for a number of reasons, so this is a more hopeful view actually.

Yep, feats don't have much of an impact on how challenging encounters are, IME. The DM does that by how he or she plays the monsters. Goblins that use hit and run tactics, leading the PCs into traps and trying to separate them are going to be a much harder challenge than goblins that never leave the intimidate grid area and just act like pieces on a game board. Evil intelligent NPCs aren't just going to be sitting there in their room waiting for the PCs to enter and start combat. Fighting is loud. Chances are, they are aware of the PCs from their previous battles and will take appropriate actions to prepare themselves.

 

[Krachek]

Want a more challenging game?

Dont give/allow any items that give a bonus to AC.
Remove SS and GWM.
Give a linear progression to agonizing blast.

 

[Warpiglet]

Want a more challenging game?

Dont give/allow any items that give a bonus to AC.
Remove SS and GWM.
Give a linear progression to agonizing blast.

I assume you mean magic items?

As to eldritch blast, care to explain? I would like to know how it would look.

 

[Krachek]

I assume you mean magic items?

As to eldritch blast, care to explain? I would like to know how it would look.

Eldritch blast + agonizing blast is an all stars dip. Just add a tax to make it less gold.
Ex: Add charisma modifier to Eldritch blast damage, but this bonus cannot exceed your warlock level.


Yes magic item that give bonus to AC or help AC. Cloak of displacement.
AC too high makes low CR monster useless. If you want to challenge PC they got to take some damage.

 

[ccs]

5) There is no set Wealth/Treasure/Magic Item guide that is assumed by the game or the Encounter Builder.
Any amount of magic items put the party above the curve.
(I am still a little unsure if this remains the case with assuming the parties fighty types have access to magic weapons.

The part I've put in red is simply not true. There's a lot of magic items in the game, many of wich are not geared to winning fights.... I can give you plenty of cool loot - that you'll like! - & not skew the combat.
Of course your job, as a creative player, should always be to find innovative ways to use that Mylunds Spoon etc.

 

[Illithidbix]

The part I've put in red is simply not true. There's a lot of magic items in the game, many of wich are not geared to winning fights.... I can give you plenty of cool loot - that you'll like! - & not skew the combat.
Of course your job, as a creative player, should always be to find innovative ways to use that Mylunds Spoon etc.

Fake News.
My statement is a priori true.

Mylunds Spoon is OP: Stick it in the Tarrasque's the nose and suffocate it with gruel.