Challenge Rating and Monster Manuals

What did the DM expect? For you to run? Surrender? Five CR 2 encounters is something like CR 6 or 7.

What was it you encountered? Is it possible to parlay? Will the belligerents take prisoners? Or are they more interested in eating you?
 

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Greenfield

Adventurer
Okay, here's the set up: We're trying to recover a sacred scroll (non-magical) stolen by the Drow.

We finally got to the island where they took it. There was no road or trail from the shore, so we scanned around for footprints or a sign that someone elde had been here.

We found a trail and followed it. They weren't humnoid tracks, so we figured that we were going to find someone who might offer us direction.

We found a cave opening with two guards outside, looking lile larger than average Satyr. The Bard (our diplomat) approached, empty handed, to say hello and open negotiations.

The guards charged and dropped her in one swing.

We fought and dropped the guards, after which we made certain that they didn't die. We didn't spend magic on them, just healing checks and bandages, but we didn't want to have our dealing with them start with murder.

With no other options, we entered the cave and navigated our way over a 15 foot wide pit bordered by low walls. (We slung a line and used the harness from a climber's kit.)

Three more attacked as we were straightening ourselves up on the other side.

Our big fighter faced em, but three to one dropped him in two rounds. Our Cleric is out of healing (he's he 1st level, so he spent both of his spells patching people up from the first fight. He managed to reach in with a Cure Minor to stabilize the fighter, but he's at the edge of dead.

Our Ranger/Druid got hit and they took him to zero in one hit. (Great axes, D12 +3, and ahead-butt, D6+1) He used one of two charges on a Cure Light wand to make himself functional, but he'll fall on the next hit.

The Cleric is 1st level and not a great melee hope. I'm running a Wizard and my one offensive spell is Color Spray. I can't use it without taking out my own people, and if even one of them makes his Save, I'm dead. (Their average damage drops me in one hit). The Bard is still down hit points from the first encounter.

So two of them to drain spells and hit points followed by three of them, no real retreat possible, and an enemy who won't parlay, they just attack.

These "CR 2" creatures are from MM III, so the CR rating is questionable, to say the least. By the book they get a +2 morale bonus to hit and damage if they're within 30 feet of another of their own race.

Simply put, this DM doesn't know how to balance an encounter. And the simplest solution at this point is to just play along, don't try to beg off the TPK in progress, then talk to him again.

I've had the conversation, explaining how encounter planning works, and pointing out that the later edition Monster Manuals need to have their CR numbers questioned. He always seems to understand, but then he goes right back to that book and over matches the party again. He sees "CR 2", says, "Well, the party's 2nd level, so a head-to-head matchup should be a fair fight.", and then doesn't understand why PCs keep dying.

Maybe he'll learn this time.
 

Dandu

First Post
What if, and this is just purely hypothetical, we need to up the optimization because the DM won't adjust his combat encounters?
 

It sounds like everyone except the fighter is on their feet. Can you get everyone to the other side of the pit and attempt to parley? Have you been entitled to sense motive checks to see if they've been charmed? If they're fighting like automatons (Beep, boop, kill intruders!) and not even shouting at you to leave or something like that I'd be suspicious.

Is this someone new to DMing?

Otherwise, I say blow your color spray and go down swinging.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
The pit is 40 feet from the fight. No way to get people across it with the enemy right there. Cut the rope and we're done.

And no, this guy isn't new to DMing, but he's very poor at character interaction.

Example: We met the heads of the monastery where thr DM's PC was trained. They had called him back for reasons unstated.

We asked if we could do something to help. They asked, "So, you agree?"

Us: "Agree to what?"

Them: "To do the mission."

Us: "What mission?"

Them: "The mission we're sending him on."

Us: "What's the mission?"

Them: "Do you agree?"

It went on for a dozen or so more questions before we got minimal information: A scroll had been stolen, three months ago, and they want someone to find it and return. Followed by a similarly frustrating exchange to find out what the scroll was, what it looked like, etc. Actual clues never really came out. Why they waited three months was never explained, and our "agreeing to help our friend" somehow became "take his place completely."

We have a lot of these encounters, where what we ask or try to do has is halfway ignored. Questions just don't get answers. In this adventure we reached a village and needed to arrange a boat. We had been advised (by the Drow who admitted to stealing the scroll) that we should approach and demonstrate our strength, then just take the boat. We approached, injured and exhausted, because their village was the only safe place to rest. We told them what the Drow had advised, and that we neither liked nor trusted the Drow, and thought that trying to show off, bully and steal their boat was "just bloody rude", but that we were willing to pay a boatman to take us where we needed to go.

Their response? "Who's your champion?" It was as if they hadn't heard a word we said.

In a different adventure we tried Gather Information to learn about a group doing business in town. We ask about them by name, make rolls in the low 30s, and learn that we had their name right. Nothing else.

Bard makes Bardic Lore check, also in the 30s, to see if there are any legends or tales about the group. He learns that the name we have for them is the right one. Period.

We ended up turning and walking away from that adventure. We had tried various Knowledge skills to identify a toxic fungus that projected anti-magic and infected anyone who got near. No matter what skill we tried, it was always, "That's not the right skill. it's something else".

As far as "Only the fighter is down" is concerned: Everyone in the party is a single hit from down. It's a tight melee situation and none of us are melee specialists.

I'll probably call on the group to withdraw a short distance so I have a clear field for my spell.

That may buy time, but that's all it will do.
 


Greenfield

Adventurer
No one in our group is ever forced to DM. We have six players currently, two of whom have DMed but currently don't. We had two other players, one of which won't DM and one of which we discovered shouldn't DM (You may recall my tales of "Problem Child"?)

It's purely optional.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Okay, here's an update: We didn't die.

The DM decided to offer us some reinforcements, either the NPC Cleric that had been accompanying us, or his own PC Monk, whose mission this was supposed to be.

Since the DM's PC is supposed to fade to the background when he/she DMs, I voted for the Cleric.

The DM sent both.

The Monk leaped boldly into the fray, and almost made it across the 15 foot pit. Missed the Long Jump by one, so it was ruled that eh had grabbed the edge. Next round, and a Climb check later, he was in the fight. And promptly hit the ground as a foe one-punched him.

The Cleric did some Healing, and we spent the last charge of a Cure Light wand to get the Barbarian back conscious. Then the reinforcement Cleric went down in a single blow.

We had people fall back and my character used the Color Spray spell, which stunned and blinded two of the three foes for one round. We used that time to use the last of our healing potions to get people on their feet, and we ran.

The vast majority of the party was in the "Walking wounded" stage, with one or two hit points, and even the healthiest of us would have fallen to a single swing doing average damage.

So what prompted this generosity on the DM's part? I pointed out that our party of 5 level one and level 2 characters had faced five CR 2s, which is a formula for a TPK, even if the "CR2s" aren't from MM III.

He questioned that, so I counted them off: Two at the entrance and three inside with no recovery time in between.

He pointed out that we could have rested. Until I reminded him that we were on a clock - Back by sunset the next day or the boat leaves without us.

Also, if we had camped the foes would have had time to replace the wounded guards from the entrance before we came back. We'd be facing the same situation again.

We managed to succeed on our mission, ending with a classic "Jake, start the plane!!!" yell as we ran for the shore with enemy hordes in hot pursuit. (Okay, there wasn't a plane, but you get the picture.)

Short version we ran for our lives.

Our game is about to go on hiatus until mid May, but I thought I should put an end to the tale.
 

For a second I was waiting for classic "Bad DM Syndrome" to appear where the monk was able to single handily defeat all the monsters, win the girl, and turn all of your characters in to his groupies.

You think that when his PC went down in one hit that it would have tipped him off something wasn't right.

Why the hiatus?
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
The game is hosted at my home and I'm going to be unavailable on weekends starting in a few weeks.

There's a Renaissance Faire that runs here starting in April, and training and construction have already started. I work there and everyone in the group knows it, so it's well understood that the game takes a break during this season.
 

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