Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Kerrick]

I'm having trouble conflating this:

I was looking over the natural armor guidelines for monsters, and I noticed that you also say that fey, outsiders, and (intelligent) undead should get deflection bonuses. Is this for ALL members of those types? Fey I could see, and some outsiders, but not undead unless they're incorporeal.

Interesting question. I'd probably agree. Just apply the bonus to incorporeal undead.

With this:

10... -1 size, +7 Dex, +12* NA, +8 Deflection = AC 36

I took the first reply to mean that deflection bonuses should only be applied to incorporeal undead, and not fey, outsiders, or corporeal undead. I still say a sacred/profane bonus would make more sense - stuff like atropals and infernals (and even balors, pit fiends, and mariliths) should definitely get it, as should the high-level angels (planetars, solars, etc.). But that's just me. *shrug*

I think the Balor would get +10 for tough leathery skin and +2 from its size.

So the NA guideline should read something more like "add a bonus equal to double the creature's size modifier" too? Makes sense to me - a larger creature's hide is going to be thicker than normal, no matter how many HD it has, and it helps account for the loss they'd otherwise get.

Let's take dragons as an example. A great wyrm silver (random choice) is CR 35, so its AC should be around 45. It's got 40 HD, so its NA is only going to be ~24; if we add the double size bonus (+16), this bumps it up to +40. 10 - 8 (size) + 40 = 42.

The increase in stats a PC (or npc/monster) gain for every 4 Hit dice. (First appears PHB pg 10; progression continues ad-infinitum in epic, ELH pg 7)

Oh. I usually call them ability boosts or lump them in with inherent, since that's what they are.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'm having trouble conflating this:

With this:

I took the first reply to mean that deflection bonuses should only be applied to incorporeal undead, and not fey, outsiders, or corporeal undead.

No, I thought we were just talking about Undead.

Deflection bonus for: Fey, Outsiders, Incorporeal Undead.

I still say a sacred/profane bonus would make more sense - stuff like atropals and infernals (and even balors, pit fiends, and mariliths) should definitely get it, as should the high-level angels (planetars, solars, etc.). But that's just me. *shrug*

Possibly, but 3rd Edition already has too many types of bonuses without compounding things.

So the NA guideline should read something more like "add a bonus equal to double the creature's size modifier" too? Makes sense to me - a larger creature's hide is going to be thicker than normal, no matter how many HD it has, and it helps account for the loss they'd otherwise get.

No, as per the monster manual, you get a Natural Armor bonus increase when you increase size as follows.

Large +2
Huge +5
Gargantuan +9
Colossal +14
Titanic +20
Macro-Fine +27
etc.

Let's take dragons as an example. A great wyrm silver (random choice) is CR 35, so its AC should be around 45. It's got 40 HD, so its NA is only going to be ~24; if we add the double size bonus (+16), this bumps it up to +40. 10 - 8 (size) + 40 = 42.

Actually if it was CR 35 we should be looking for an AC of 55, not 45.

Its AC will be:

-8 size, Natural Armor +53 (39 for Dragon scale...which is always one less than HD total) plus 14 for Colossal.

So 10 - 8 + 53 = AC 55

 

[Kerrick]

Possibly, but 3rd Edition already has too many types of bonuses without compounding things.

True, but what's the difference between assigning a deflection bonus and a sacred/profane bonus?

Edit: I was thinking about this last night, and I came to the realization that sacred/profane are pretty much the same thing as deflection, just renamed - they apply against touch attacks and when you're flat-footed. There's no real need for them, and I finally have an excuse to drop them entirely.

No, as per the monster manual, you get a Natural Armor bonus increase when you increase size as follows.

Large +2
Huge +5
Gargantuan +9
Colossal +14
Titanic +20
Macro-Fine +27
etc.

You mean Table 4-2? It says Huge is +3, Gargantuan +4, and Colossal +5. Obviously you revised it, but how'd you come up with your values?

Edit: Duh. +3, +4, +5, +6 intervals.

Actually if it was CR 35 we should be looking for an AC of 55, not 45.

Bah. I did the math in my head. Sue me.

Its AC will be:

-8 size, Natural Armor +53 (39 for Dragon scale...which is always one less than HD total) plus 14 for Colossal.

So 10 - 8 + 53 = AC 55

You can't fault me for not knowing dragonscale NA = HD -1.. that's not mentioned in v4.

 

[WarDragon]

True, but what's the difference between assigning a deflection bonus and a sacred/profane bonus?

Edit: I was thinking about this last night, and I came to the realization that sacred/profane are pretty much the same thing as deflection, just renamed - they apply against touch attacks and when you're flat-footed. There's no real need for them, and I finally have an excuse to drop them entirely.

Sure there's a need for them. They stack with deflection, and are harder to get.

You can't fault me for not knowing dragonscale NA = HD -1.. that's not mentioned in v4.

But it is mentioned in every single 3.5 dragon statblock.

 

[Kerrick]

Sure there's a need for them. They stack with deflection, and are harder to get.

I did a quick look through the books, and I can't find anything that grants a sacred or profane bonus to AC. I'm not sure those two can be applied to AC. Consecrate/desecrate and (un)hallow add to Charisma checks to turn/rebuke undead... and that's all I could find. Considering those bonuses are so incredibly rare that only four spells use them, that's a very good case for dropping them entirely.

But it is mentioned in every single 3.5 dragon statblock.

That doesn't mean anything. UK uses a different NA formula; the balor, frex, is listed as having +19 NA in the Monster Manual, while UK's balor has +12.

If you truly want a math equation to take all this into account:
Y = X + (X/8) + (X/3) + (X/2.8/2) + 10 - Should give AC (Y) appropriate for a full-bab fightertype of level (X) to hit on a 10.

Your formula's off on a few points. It took me a few hours to figure it out, but I was scribbling stuff by hand in my notebook. First, I'm looking for a raw percentage chance to hit a given AC, so I can't use the +10 - that skews everything. Second, you failed to take into account that while stat boosts do occur every 8 (and item bonuses are every 3), you forgot that it takes TWO points to boost the AB, not 1. And finally, weapon bonus is 1/3 levels, but like you said - only half of that is going to be applied to the actual bonus, so it should be 1/6. I decided to leave stat boosts at 1/8, as it accounts for inherent bonuses as well.

So, once I changed Y to equal the total attack bonus (TAB) corrected the formula, I got:

Y = X + (X/8)* + (X/6) + (X/6). I compared that to the assumed AC for a monster of the same CR (using UK's formula) to get the percentage chance to hit.

A few things I found:

An epic monster's AC = CR + 20.

Good AB (not BAB) increases by ~+7 every 5 levels, which keeps up with monster ACs till 20th (it's 45% at every level); after that, monster ACs increase by only 1/level, so AB quickly overtakes AC. If you use the EAB, the hit chance remains the same, then starts alternating between 45% and 40% at L35th (it goes down to 40% at 35th, then back up at 40th, etc.).

Medium AB increases by ~+6 per 5 levels, which means the chances of hitting anything go down until you hit 20th (15%), then slowly go back up. If you use the EAB, it goes up to 20% at L25, then up to 25% at L30, down to 20% at L35, etc.

I didn't bother with Low AB, since mages typically apply stat and item boosts to spellcasting stats, and they're not involved in melee.

And finally... I found a way to fix the Ftr 20/Wiz 20 vs. Wiz 20/Ftr 20 problem. It's so obvious I'm really surprised no one's seen it. See... all you have to do is apply the EAB when the attack bonus hits +20, NOT the character's level. Using this rule, both characters have a +30 AB at L40. Granted, the first one's going to have a better AB up to 40th, but after that, they're both equal. It's much easier to figure - instead of worrying about when the PC reached 20th level, you just slice off everything after AB +20, halve the level, and add that to the AB.

I would've attached the spreadsheet I used (Excel really is a godsend for this kind of work), but since ENWorld's being sucky, I'll just provide a link instead.

 

[WarDragon]

Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. There's at least one spell (probably more) and one magic item that give sacred to AC. Also, the Holy/Infernal Transformation lines of spells in SpC give sacred and profane bonuses to ability scores. Not to mention several abilities in Ascension...

 

[dante58701]

Profane and sacred bonuses, much like unholy toughness, didn't really catch on until WOTC was already planning on dumping the system. They got some of their best ideas out at that point.

I'm actually glad that some game designers are sticking with 3.5. There is certainly enough of a fan base to make millions on it.

Now if we can just get that fire lit up under Krusty's --- so that he'll get more material out. It's been kinda slow as of late, even for him.

 

[Kerrick]

Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. There's at least one spell (probably more) and one magic item that give sacred to AC. Also, the Holy/Infernal Transformation lines of spells in SpC give sacred and profane bonuses to ability scores. Not to mention several abilities in Ascension...

I'm not surprised BoED has some, but I don't have it. Or Ascension, whatever that is. I can check the SpC, though.


On another note: question for UK.

Templates add an ECL bonus. NWN treats ECLs as levels in whatever monster type you have (for example, wemic is ECL +3, so you have 3 levels of beast). I want to try this for templates, but how would I translate the ECL bonus into class levels? Is it straight across, or would the class level be a percentage of the ECL bonus?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Kerrick mate!

True, but what's the difference between assigning a deflection bonus and a sacred/profane bonus?

Edit: I was thinking about this last night, and I came to the realization that sacred/profane are pretty much the same thing as deflection, just renamed - they apply against touch attacks and when you're flat-footed. There's no real need for them, and I finally have an excuse to drop them entirely.

Now you're learning.

You mean Table 4-2? It says Huge is +3, Gargantuan +4, and Colossal +5. Obviously you revised it, but how'd you come up with your values?

Edit: Duh. +3, +4, +5, +6 intervals.

Bah. I did the math in my head. Sue me.

You can't fault me for not knowing dragonscale NA = HD -1.. that's not mentioned in v4.

Well to be honest I think AC = 3/4 HD is probably better for Dragons, but the official rules ALWAYS use the AC = HD -1 so I just blindly followed that. But Dragons really have scalemail rather than full platemail (unless its something like the Titanium Dragon I guess).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya dante mate!

Profane and sacred bonuses, much like unholy toughness, didn't really catch on until WOTC was already planning on dumping the system. They got some of their best ideas out at that point.

I don't consider the addition of superfluous new AC modifiers a good idea let alone someone's best idea.

I'm actually glad that some game designers are sticking with 3.5. There is certainly enough of a fan base to make millions on it.

The only person potentially making millions off 3.5 is Monte Cook, and thats because he outsells everyone else by about 100:1. In fact I would doubt even he gets a massive percentage of his own profits considering he doesn't do his own art, layout and so forth. So he probably made less than $100,000 from his 20,000+ copy selling Book of Experimental Might.

Now if we can just get that fire lit up under Krusty's --- so that he'll get more material out. It's been kinda slow as of late, even for him.

Krusty is seriously considering a 4E jump.

When I was in London, obviously I did as much gaming as possible, and to be honest I am becoming more and more disenchanted with 3rd Edition. Its unnecessarily complicated at low levels and nightmarishly complex at epic levels (even after I tried to dumb down as much as possible).

As a designer the monsters and npcs take too long to build. I'm sitting on about 300 monster ideas and 600 potential immortal npcs (with the immortals index) and there is simply no way to be able to do that with the 3rd Edition rules. I still love epic and immortal gaming, but 3rd Edition just is not epic friendly...thats simply a fact.

I know you and a few others here are vociferously pro-3E. But I honestly believe that in the cold light of day (when 4E is released) 90+% of 3E epic gamers will jump ship.

Discuss.