Challenging CRs Large Size?

[Sylrae]

Okay. So I ran a PF game thursday, with one of my players playing a inotaur as a class, priced out using Upper Krust v5.

They are level 3.

The minotaur's total STR bonus to attack was +9 (between what he got from 2 minotaur levels and the massive 18 strength he rolled).

His damage output was so massive he was kindof outshining the other fighter types though. I have a barbarian, a fighter, and a ranger, and he was outdoing all of them in capability.

As the obvious threat, more monsters targetted him, and he was dropped into -5 or so.

The issue seems to have stemmed from his access to big damage weapons more than anything else.

Has anyone found the Large Size to be worth more than UK Priced it at?

I remember the Half-Ogre being pretty fair. Hmm.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Errr... Maybe I'm just thick, but your question doesn't really mean much to me because you haven't actually really described exactly what the character in question is built with, nor what the opposition is that it went up against.

Worth more than what? The .4 CR that's just for being large, or the 1.4 which is what it's worth when the ability score modifiers are taken into account (page 3)?

Level 3 characters? They're not even really speedbumps, they can go down so fast.

A minotaur is technically a CR 6 critter using UK's system.

At this point, I'd personally say "No, 1.4 CR seems fine for Large in the games I've run." When you're at really low levels, things like size and reach can be a bigger issue compared to the mid levels (6+) or higher.

You say "minotaur class"... what exactly is that looking like? You've got a homebrewed class and you're using rolled stats? And you're adding Stat modifiers on top of that?

You can use the CR system to homebrew classes, but there's gotta be some context for people to be able to give you feedback. Please give some specific details and then folks will be able to provide some meaningful feedback.

Note: I'm not one of the CR monkeys around here, I just happen to be messing with the system for a side project right now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Sylrae!

Its a complex issue, although technically you are using a CR 4 (ECL 6) monster at a slightly lower level than it was supposed to, hence the possibility of skewed results.

I think this is one of the reasons I suggested (but didn't enforce) the idea of all characters having base hit dice derived from their size. So, for instance a normal human would have 3 Hit Dice before even applying class Hit Dice.

Its notable that the Savage Species book treats the Minotaur as ECL 8 in tandem to its 6 base Hit Dice. It divides the monster into 8 levels whereby it gets partial powers each level until 8th where it gets the full suite of abilities and hit dice. I think thats probably the best way to play a monster at lower levels than it was intended, rather than simply a one time bonus.

For instance giving a 1st-level character a +5 vorpal sword would probably only be a +1.8 ECL boost, but might have unbalancing consequences at low-levels. As well as people wanting to kill the character and take its stuff, or in your case, concentrate on attacking the Minotaur character because it posed more of a threat.

 

[bykov]

Okay. So I ran a PF game thursday, with one of my players playing a inotaur as a class, priced out using Upper Krust v5.

They are level 3.

The minotaur's total STR bonus to attack was +9 (between what he got from 2 minotaur levels and the massive 18 strength he rolled).

His damage output was so massive he was kindof outshining the other fighter types though. I have a barbarian, a fighter, and a ranger, and he was outdoing all of them in capability.

As the obvious threat, more monsters targetted him, and he was dropped into -5 or so.

The issue seems to have stemmed from his access to big damage weapons more than anything else.

Has anyone found the Large Size to be worth more than UK Priced it at?

I remember the Half-Ogre being pretty fair. Hmm.

I have found a majority of UK's valuations to be accurate. I think the PC in question miscalculated the minotaur adjustment. We just started a campaign with Level 5 PC's and I was unable to use a minotaur PC as he valuated as an ECL 6. My own calculations to cooberate UK's numbers agreed.

Bykov.

 

[Sylrae]

Yeah, the full minotaur comes out as a CR 6, sorry..

When I say "Minotaur Class", I mean the following.

All of the special abilities of the Minotaur (Ability Score Bonuses, Scent, Powerful Charge, Large Size, etc.) are broken down by cost.

The total HD and saves are thrown out the window, but the value per level is noted.

.6 CR of the Monster is taken as the base race. No HD, no skills per level. Racial Skill Bonuses are ok, as are abilities, they get the scent, and I believe darkvision.

At each level, he takes the total value from HD & Saves & Skills & Standard Feat Progression & Standard Ability Increases & BAB & Number of Attacks at level 20, as a player class would have. He can then take any of his special abilities which were priced out earlier, to bring his total no higher than 1.25 (we're playing pathfinder, so I ramped it up a little bit) for the level. He crosses them off from his list, and once he's finished all the class levels, he has all the minotaur abilities.