Changes to Devils and Demons

[DarthDiablo]

A Lawful Good character can resist a tyrant (unjust acts of authority that therefore do not have moral force of obedience), so Robin Hood could very well be LG.

Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God.

That's exactly my point, he could be LG, even though he's usually portrayed as CG, or at least NG. Law & Chaos are not as important alignment factors as Good and Evil.

 

[pemerton]

Law vs Chaos

Lawful characters value tradition, preparation, living in groups, caution.

Chaotic characters value innovation, improvisation, living independently, daring.

TSR in Oriental Adventures said that samurai must be lawful, because they value tradition and preparation. An author whose name I can't remember in Best of White Dwarf II said that samurai are chaotic, because they are individualists in combat and value daring. 1e DDG made many of the Japanese gods chaotic for much the same sort of reason.

If Law & Chaos are supposed to be reflections of one's behavior, in the sense of their outlook on life, i.e. chaotic characters are more carefree, passionate, creative & impulsive vs. lawful who are more rigid, organized, group oriented then where does a charcter like Robin Hood fit in. Most will instincitvely say CG. But he was only chaotic when Prince John was on the throne. When King Richard was around he was a loyalist, who followed his just and lawful King's rule. Therefore he should be LG. But since he did a bit of both, maybe he's NG? (if i remember correctly he was used as an example of CG in at least one edition of D&D)

I agree entirely with this example as a counterexample to the utility of Law and Chaos as alignment categories in D&D.

The closest that people usually come to being "Lawful" or "Chaotic" is one or both of two ways. One is politics...either actually being in politics, or even just a persons political views. The other is personality traits...obessive/compulsives, or just highly neat and orderly people could be said to have "lawful" personalites I suppose. But do any of those things really justify having spells to specifically affect people with that trait? Why not have "Smite People Who's Favorite Colour is Yellow?"

Agreed to some extent, but as the samurai and Robin Hood examples show, the notions of law and chaos don't even pick out a coherent body of character traits.

If you're Lawful, you'll naturally want to follow laws, or set them up. You'll try to cooperate with others to achieve your goals (be they fair or foul) and try to set up an environment where everyone can know what is expected of them.

On the other hand, if you're Chaotic, you have little use for strictures; everyone has tugged along at their own pace, and somehow, they've found an equilibrium. You thrive off that equilibrium, pursuing your own goals (be they fair or foul) without much heed as to what others expect of you.

So it was the same with Devils and Demons: Devils/Baatezu feel the need to work within a defined structure, and subvert it to their own baleful needs.

Isn't subverting existing structures a Chaotic act?!

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not saying it was a bad thing, mind you- TONS of people loved it, but I have to say that a little bit of wonder sorta died within me- the new Demons and Devils were Machiavellian masters of intrigue and power, but weren't the might masters of reality and time that they used to be.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE SENSE OF WONDER?!?

I swear the funny there still has legs. I'll be laughing about that for a long time to come.

 

[Voadam]

Coming from a much more Chaotic society than you, I must say Chaos and Law are very important concepts.

Traditional fantasy settings always seem like LG civilization vs. CE monsters. I'd like to see a setting that is much more LE with NG or CG adventurers.

Have you checked out Midnight? I don't own it but from what I've read of it society is dominated by an evil god that conquered most of the world and the PCs are renegades who stand up against the dark.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

But enough of the real world, let's get back to the fantasy concept. A great deal of the Law vs. Chaos ideology comes from Michael Moorcocks Elric series. It has been a loooooong time since I read those books, but (correct ,me if I'm wrong) from what I recall the concepts were more Law=Good, Chaos=Evil. If you want to run your campaign with a law vs. chaos dichotomy that's fine.

It wasn't exactly that simple. The basic alignment conceit in Moorcock's Eternal Champion books was that the ideal state of the universe is Balance, a dynamic, active, beneficial neutrality (NG by D&D standards, I think), where Law and Chaos are equally represented. Excess of Law was bad, because it resulted in stasis, where nothing happened; excess of Chaos was equally bad, because it led to chaos where nothing was stable.

 

[Merlion]

It wasn't exactly that simple. The basic alignment conceit in Moorcock's Eternal Champion books was that the ideal state of the universe is Balance, a dynamic, active, beneficial neutrality (NG by D&D standards, I think), where Law and Chaos are equally represented. Excess of Law was bad, because it resulted in stasis, where nothing happened; excess of Chaos was equally bad, because it led to chaos where nothing was stable.

But, from what I understand and what you just said, the "ideal condition" was still basically Good, and excess of "law" or "chaos" basically amounted to "Evil".


Most conflicts...especially most fantasy conflicts, come down to some form of "right" and "wrong"...which is usually translated to Good and Evil, but some times other terms are used.


And this essentially supports my own feelings...that Order and Chaos are simply balancing arms that keep the world more or less physically running...whereas Good and Evil are about morality...about what should and shouldnt be.

 

[DarthDiablo]

It wasn't exactly that simple. The basic alignment conceit in Moorcock's Eternal Champion books was that the ideal state of the universe is Balance, a dynamic, active, beneficial neutrality (NG by D&D standards, I think), where Law and Chaos are equally represented. Excess of Law was bad, because it resulted in stasis, where nothing happened; excess of Chaos was equally bad, because it led to chaos where nothing was stable.

Taken from Wikipedia: Elric of Melniboné

Being Emperor of Melniboné, he is a servant of the Lords of Chaos. Unlike his fellow Melnibonéans, who are decadent, cruel, and mostly devoid of sentiment and the gentler passions, Elric is plagued by his conscience, has modern sensibilities and is very curious about the outside world. Melnibonéans are somewhat like elves – but more like the amoral fairies in Jack Vance's Lyonesse books than J. R. R. Tolkien's majestic peoples – and "Elric" is a form of the Old English Ælfric which means elf ruler. In this way, Elric breaks the mold of the stereotypical Albino depicted in stories as a heartless monster.

Decadent, cruel and devoid of sentiment and other gentler passions: sounds Evil to me. Having a conscience and modern sensibilites (I'm assuming in relation to modern day western society) sounds Good. Also appears he may have been an influence for Drizz't from FR.

As an embodiment of the Eternal Champion, which mainly takes the form of a champion of Law, Elric is torn between his ancestry and his destiny. Consequently, as the saga progresses Elric's allegiance turns from Chaos towards Law. He eventually comes to represent a balance between these forces as he develops a hatred for all gods, both of Law and Chaos, for their manipulation of mortals. At the end, Elric's hopes for a world without gods who make a misery of human lives, results in his death while attempting to bring such a world into being.

Looks like he was Good all along, compared to his Chaotic(Evil) heritage. In contrast, it appears the lawful gods of this series are Evil as well. He didn't like either of them, so I have to agree with your NG comparison regarding Elric's alignment. Or maybe it was his Evil sword pushing his buttons. I'll have to read these books again!

Arioch, Lord of the Seven Darks, Lord of the Higher Hell, The Knight of Swords: One of the mightiest Dukes of Hell and a Chaos Lord. He is the perennial patron of the Melnibonéan emperors and is responsible for much of their sorcerous power and long rule. He finds Elric to be one of his sweetest servants, as Elric's moral dilemmas provide him with much sport.

Duke of Hell and Chaos lord who enjoys Elric's moral dilemmas. Sounds like Chaos is Evil to me.

Elric is the (often unwilling) tool of his evil, sentient sword Stormbringer, which is itself a parody of the normal sword-and-sorcery hero's weapon. In Stormbringer, the sickly Elric finds the energy he needs, but at a terrible price – Stormbringer feeds on the souls of those it slays and gives part of their life force to sustain Elric. Stormbringer is willful, and by no means under Elric's control:

This sword here at my side don't act the way it should. Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave.
—Blue Öyster Cult, "Black Blade" (lyrics by Michael Moorcock)

Here the sword is described as Evil. Was it called called Chaotic in the books?

Donblas, the Justice Maker: A Lord of Law, the only one named in the saga. He aids Elric in his ultimate struggles against Chaos.

I suppose this one could be read as Good or Evil, as he is aiding Elric against his own enemies.

From what I've gathered here, it appears both rulers of Chaos and Law are all evil. Elric defies his chaotic (evil) nature, but as things progress he finds the gods of Law are evil too. Elric, being Good, ends up fighting both.

From my point of view, this is again a battle of Good vs. Evil. Elric is good (mostly), but constantly struggles with his social position & the will of his sword. All the gods are evil. The Chaotics being more blatent, but the Lawful ones being more manipulative. Elric battles the obvious (chaotic) ones first, but then discovers the Lawful ones are Evil too. Hmmm sounds familiar. We could just drop Demons & Devils into the place of Chaos & Law and wind up with something similar. Again it's Good vs. Evil with Law & Chaos being more of a description of how they are Good or Evil. Personality traits & politics.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Taken from Wikipedia: Elric of Melniboné

Decadent, cruel and devoid of sentiment and other gentler passions: sounds Evil to me. Having a conscience and modern sensibilites (I'm assuming in relation to modern day western society) sounds Good. Also appears he may have been an influence for Drizz't from FR.

In this case, wikipedia is doing you wrong if you've come to the conclusion that Elric is "good" by any stretch of the imagination. He is strongly motivated by eldritch passions and selfish desires (curiosity, revenge, etc.) rather than any desire to do good. He dooms friends, lovers, and allies to die, in many cases for his own selfish purposes (witness the invasion of Melnibone that he "commands").

Looks like he was Good all along, compared to his Chaotic(Evil) heritage. In contrast, it appears the lawful gods of this series are Evil as well.

Elric doesn't appear to develop any hatred for the Lords of Law, actually; they tend to get a good rap from him.

Duke of Hell and Chaos lord who enjoys Elric's moral dilemmas. Sounds like Chaos is Evil to me.

"Hell" doesn't mean the same thing in Moorcock's cosmology as in, say, the Christian; he's using the idea of Hell as a jumping-off point for the alien or feared. That said, Arioch is presented as just flat-out evil; I always felt that Moorcock really dropped the ball in consistently showing only the "bad sides" of Chaos, since he made it an enemy in every single one(?) of his Eternal Champion books.

Here the sword is described as Evil. Was it called called Chaotic in the books?

Chaos-forged, yes. Defined as "evil" separately from its origins: Yes.

I suppose this one could be read as Good or Evil, as he is aiding Elric against his own enemies.

From what I've gathered here, it appears both rulers of Chaos and Law are all evil. Elric defies his chaotic (evil) nature, but as things progress he finds the gods of Law are evil too. Elric, being Good, ends up fighting both.

Not so.

From my point of view, this is again a battle of Good vs. Evil. Elric is good (mostly), but constantly struggles with his social position & the will of his sword. All the gods are evil. The Chaotics being more blatent, but the Lawful ones being more manipulative. Elric battles the obvious (chaotic) ones first, but then discovers the Lawful ones are Evil too. Hmmm sounds familiar. We could just drop Demons & Devils into the place of Chaos & Law and wind up with something similar. Again it's Good vs. Evil with Law & Chaos being more of a description of how they are Good or Evil. Personality traits & politics.

Actually no. It's more a Nietzschean rejection of "divine influence" as a damning cycle of behavior than a good-vs.-evil thing. Moreover, Elric never turns against the Lords of Law. Interestingly enough, the Chronicles of Corum end up this way as well, with the influence of both Law and Chaos banished from the world.

 

[DarthDiablo]

In this case, wikipedia is doing you wrong if you've come to the conclusion that Elric is "good" by any stretch of the imagination. He is strongly motivated by eldritch passions and selfish desires (curiosity, revenge, etc.) rather than any desire to do good. He dooms friends, lovers, and allies to die, in many cases for his own selfish purposes (witness the invasion of Melnibone that he "commands").

I appreciate your insight here, as it is more in depth than what I've read from some earlier posts regarding Elric. It does lead me to ask more questions, however.

More Wikipedia: Strombringer

This powerful enchanted black blade is a member of a demon race that takes on the form of a sword, and as such is a force of chaos and evil. Stormbringer's edge is capable of cutting through virtually any material not protected by potent sorcery, and it can kill any unprotected human in one swing. Its most distinctive features are that it is sentient (if not sapient), with a mind and will of its own, and that it feeds upon the souls of those it kills. Elric loathes the sword but is almost helpless without the strength and vitality it confers him.
Stormbringer’s hunger for souls is such that it frequently betrays Elric by creating a bloodlust in Elric, turning in his hands and killing friends and lovers. The cursed nature of the sword adds to Elric’s guilt and self-loathing even as he feels pleasure when the stolen lifeforce enters his body.

Is it Elric himself who commits to the Evil acts, the influence of Stormbringer or a combination of both that make him not Good. If he is conflicted he is at least Neutral in terms of Good vs. Evil.

Elric doesn't appear to develop any hatred for the Lords of Law, actually; they tend to get a good rap from him.

Does this mean the Gods of Law are Good? If he doesn't hate them, they must be doing something right (at least in his eyes).

"Hell" doesn't mean the same thing in Moorcock's cosmology as in, say, the Christian; he's using the idea of Hell as a jumping-off point for the alien or feared. That said, Arioch is presented as just flat-out evil; I always felt that Moorcock really dropped the ball in consistently showing only the "bad sides" of Chaos, since he made it an enemy in every single one(?) of his Eternal Champion books.
Chaos-forged, yes. Defined as "evil" separately from its origins: Yes.
Not so.

If the sword is actually a lifestealing demon as described above, it's Evil. A demon forged by Chaos! Definetly sounds like Chaos is very much like Evil to me.

Actually no. It's more a Nietzschean rejection of "divine influence" as a damning cycle of behavior than a good-vs.-evil thing. Moreover, Elric never turns against the Lords of Law. Interestingly enough, the Chronicles of Corum end up this way as well, with the influence of both Law and Chaos banished from the world.

If Elric did not turn against the Lords of Law, did he just reject them? A previous post suggested he turned against them (perhaps only in spirit, not actively), or at least he grew to hate all the gods.

I apologize if I'm starting to get out to leftfield here. I haven't read the books in at least 15 years, and i'm not sure if I even finished all of them. From what I've been reading here, there still seems to be more similarities between Chaos & Evil, and perhaps some between Law & Good (or maybe more Neutral than Good in Elric's world). I suppose I'll have to read the books again in order to make a proper comparison.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I appreciate your insight here, as it is more in depth than what I've read from some earlier posts regarding Elric. It does lead me to ask more questions, however.

More Wikipedia: Strombringer

Is it Elric himself who commits to the Evil acts, the influence of Stormbringer or a combination of both that make him not Good. If he is conflicted he is at least Neutral in terms of Good vs. Evil.

I didn't say he was Evil, only that he's strongly anti-heroic and almost certainly not good. Think of his final volitional act:

It took Jagreen Lern over an hour to die, and then only because Moonglum begged Elric to finish him.

Does this mean the Gods of Law are Good? If he doesn't hate them, they must be doing something right (at least in his eyes).

They are, in the sense that they are assisting Elric and his allies to stop Chaos from engulfing the world entirely. It's more a Balance thing than a "preference for Law" thing.

Again, I think that Moorcock messes up his own cosmological identity by presenting Chaos as the adversary, and Law as the ally, in practically all his books. It has the effect of blunting his blanket statements to the effect that the Balance is the ideal or preferred state.

If the sword is actually a lifestealing demon as described above, it's Evil. A demon forged by Chaos! Definetly sounds like Chaos is very much like Evil to me.

A demon forged by something, yes, but not clearly of Chaos, since it's an aspect of the Black Sword, which belongs neither to Law or Chaos. It is, however, Evil, and insofar as Stormbringer's aspect is strongly Chaos-influenced (perhaps by virtue of thousands of years' association with the Nihrain and Melniboneans) it is BOTH Chaotic and Evil (something that is certainly possible in, say, D&D, ne c'est pas?

If Elric did not turn against the Lords of Law, did he just reject them? A previous post suggested he turned against them (perhaps only in spirit, not actively), or at least he grew to hate all the gods.

He seems to hate his patron Arioch, but there's no real evidence of animosity for any of the other gods out there, except insofar as they're Arioch's allies and/or attempting to destroy the world.

I apologize if I'm starting to get out to leftfield here. I haven't read the books in at least 15 years, and i'm not sure if I even finished all of them. From what I've been reading here, there still seems to be more similarities between Chaos & Evil, and perhaps some between Law & Good (or maybe more Neutral than Good in Elric's world). I suppose I'll have to read the books again in order to make a proper comparison.

Well, we're probably way off topic by now, so I'll try to complete the hermeneutic circle here:

I do think that D&D has a long history of equating Chaos with Evil, often unconsciously, although 3e makes it explicit with the slaadi (who come off as too sinister for CN in my book). B/E/C/M/I D&D pretty much directly equated Chaos with Evil, since there were three alignments (Chaotic, Neutral, Lawful) and all the "good" creatures (archons, gold dragons, etc.) were Lawful while all the "evil" humanoids, undead, and demons were Chaotic. So yes, it's a pretty long-standing tradition.

IMO, rejiggering demons to come across as explicitly more "chaotic" in form and appearance is an excellent idea; I've always been bothered by the highly crowded field of evil outsiders, and especially by the fact that demons and devils were often quite similar in form and function while the only truly "chaotic" seeming evil outsider (the hordling) was in fact NE! The FC1 demons, especially the obyriths, are IMHO a good start to this. I'd prefer not to go TOO far with the reshuffle (for example, I think that the balor, a raging, explosive terror of uncontrolled fire, can easily remain a CE demon!), but certainly some lines can be drawn. One way to go is to emphasize the hybrid/bestial nature of many demon forms (pretty much all the old-school Types I-VI as well as Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus et al); while animals per se are not chaotic, combining animal elements results in a being that strikes me, at least, as being more "chaotic" than "lawful," just as a being that is more "civilized" or mechanistic in appearance seems "lawful" to my mind. But that's just IMHO.