Level Up (A5E) Changes to race (species?)

[The Mirrorball Man]

This is pathfinder 2’s approach and it is by far the simplest and most elegant.

It is also quite different from what D&D has always been. Right now a character is defined by an addition of layers: class, subclass, race, background, etc... Each of them brings different advantages and abilities.
There's nothing wrong with point-buy systems and floating bonuses, but if that's the path you want to follow, why not go all the way and completely get rid of races, classes and levels?

 

[TheSword]

It is also quite different from what D&D has always been. Right now a character is defined by an addition of layers: class, subclass, race, background, etc... Each of them brings different advantages and abilities.
There's nothing wrong with point-buy systems and floating bonuses, but if that's the path you want to follow, why not go all the way and completely get rid of races, classes and levels?

That’s fairly hyperbolic. D&D races grant +2 and +1 to stats based on race, PF2 grants +2 and +2 based on ancestry (which is just used as another word for race). Hardly ‘quite different’.

Class, subclass and background has zero impact on ability scores, other then where you would assign your points, as it always has. Who is suggesting getting rid of anything. Having one racial bonus be floating just gets rid of the problem of the best Orc wizard never being as good as the best elf wizard. While still making the average Orcs stronger than the average human.

Let’s be honest it doesn’t matter whether you roll, use an elite array or points buy. The results will on average be similar.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well... what if not ALL species gave you an ASI? Maybe Orcs and Goliath are general stronger and they give you a +2 to STR or CON, but that just takes the place of another feature. It still doesn't solve the pigeonholing stuff quite a lot, but I think opening the idea that some species give ASI and some instead give you a different benefit could open up design space.

Sure,that is perfectly fine. Ultimately the ASIs are just one type of feature.

We treat those ASI the same way we treat those given by the class and you can just trade them away for a feat at level 1?

That however would just make them meaningless and encourage min maxing. It's not like the dragonborn can trade their breath weapon for polearm master.

 

[cbwjm]

Why not just say that you get (e.g. for goliaths) +2 Strength and +2 to any other score of your choice? Players will naturally put the free bonus in a score associated with their class -- and if they don't, well, that's a choice they can make.

This is what I think should be done with the race. +2 to a single stat, +2 to any other stat or +1 to two other stats (or a feat since it effectively works like an ASI from level up.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This is what I think should be done with the race. +2 to a single stat, +2 to any other stat or +1 to two other stats (or a feat since it effectively works like an ASI from level up.)

All these floating stats or combining ASIs from so many sources that the player effectively can get them where they want are utterly pointless. If you want that end result just drop the charade and increase the point buy points.

 

[cbwjm]

All these floating stats or combining ASIs from so many sources that the player effectively can get them where they want are utterly pointless. If you want that end result just drop the charade and increase the point buy points.

Well I meant that the single stat would be to a specific stat for the race, I could have been clearer on that, and then there is the floating stat for those who want to become a wizard who wouldn't otherwise have a bonus to Int so that they can get to a 16 or 17 in their main class stat.

Just increasing point buy doesn't work since not everyone uses it. Stat bonuses can apply to both rolled stats and point buy, an increase in point buy points only applies to point buy.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well I meant that the single stat would be to a specific stat for the race, I could have been clearer on that, and then there is the floating stat for those who want to become a wizard who wouldn't otherwise have a bonus to Int so that they can get to a 16 or 17 in their main class stat.

Right. So in practice every memer of a certain class will have same stats regardless of their species. Thus the ASIs were pointless.

Just increasing point buy doesn't work since not everyone uses it. Stat bonuses can apply to both rolled stats and point buy, an increase in point buy points only applies to point buy.

People who roll have already agreed to be fine with their game being an unbalanced mess. Besides, it's not super difficult to come up with roll methods that result an higher average.

 

[TheSword]

Right. So in practice every memer of a certain class will have same stats regardless of their species. Thus the ASIs were pointless.

People who roll have already agreed to be fine with their game being an unbalanced mess. Besides, it's not super difficult to come up with roll methods that result an higher average.

I think the idea is that orcs get +2 strength, which means orcs find it easier to have stronger characters. They then gain +2 in a stat of their choice. Meaning they can also be great wizards and clerics.

If we simply increased points buy, it would reduce the differences between species. The PC just become more powerful rather than more varied.

Either you would have to put the maximum up from 15 for players at first level which will increase overall power or find some other way to increase these stats.

I guess people like the idea of some stats based on species without being excluded from what you want to do.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think the idea is that orcs get +2 strength, which means orcs find it easier to have stronger characters. They then gain +2 in a stat of their choice. Meaning they can also be great wizards and clerics.

Your first and second sentence literally cancel each other. If everyone can put +2 to strength then it indeed is not easier to make strong orc!

If we simply increased points buy, it would reduce the differences between species. The PC just become more powerful rather than more varied.

The floating ASIs already do that. And if you're gonna have four ability points that go above point buy that you can put pretty much wherever, then it is just more elegant to increase the point buy to allow buying those points directly.

Either you would have to put the maximum up from 15 for players at first level which will increase overall power or find some other way to increase these stats.

Yes, of course you would need to increase the cap. But it doesn't make characters more powerful as those extra point buy point just replace ASIs

I guess people like the idea of some stats based on species without being excluded from what you want to do.

As long as 'not being excluded' is understood to mean 'everyone can have equally high main stat' these two wishes are literally incompatible. That's my point, you can't have both.

 

[cbwjm]

Right. So in practice every memer of a certain class will have same stats regardless of their species. Thus the ASIs were pointless.

People who roll have already agreed to be fine with their game being an unbalanced mess. Besides, it's not super difficult to come up with roll methods that result an higher average.

Yeah, just gonna have to agree to disagree here.