Changing a prestige class into ability substituations?

[Matrixryu]

I like the multi-class system of Dnd 3.5, but some stuff about the way prestige classes work have been starting to bother me. Things like uneven power progression (prestige class powers start weak, become strong very quickly, and then stop growing after 10 lvls) and overlaping abilities (a rogue gets uncanny dodge....then gets it again if he goes shadowdancer) are starting to drive me crazy.

Now, most of us in this subform aren't fans of DnD 4.0, but I think their idea of letting prestige classes modify the main classes so that you have even power progression is pretty good. I think that it would be possible to merge that a bit into dnd 3.5.

Here's an example, you have a rogue who wants to become a shadowdancer. Instead of having him level in a separate class, switch out some of his abilities as he levels and make them become shadowdancer abillities instead, and spread them out all the way to level 20. Shadowdancers don't get any sneak attacks, so swap out 4-5 sneak attack increases for the best shadowdancer abilities (Hide in plain sight, evasion, darkvision, shadow illusion, and so on). Don't make him waste levels getting uncanny dodge when he already has it, insert shadow abilities into dead levels...

Yea, it would be a little hard to balance this properly, and it just wouldn't work with some class combinations. However, I think it would give characters much smoother progression if done right. Has anyone done this before, or seen a system where it has been done before? The closest thing of course is spellcaster prestige classes, where they still get some increased spellcasting powers from their old class while gaining some new abilities.

The problem I'm going to run into is that I'm already using pathfinder classes, and those have no dead levels to insert prestiege class abilities into, lol XD

 

[CAFargo]

I think that this can be good in a few different situations:

1. A rogue who wants to go assassin: simply switch out the levels in rogue for the levels in assassin, but slowed down slightly.

2. A paladin who really just wants to be a blackguard: spread out the abilities given for sacrificing paladin levels and the abilities for being a blackguard, and then either progress sneak attack and slow down spells or progress spells and slow down sneak attacks.

3. A monk who wants to play...any other class: simply switch out the levels in monk for those in the prestige class, but slowed down slightly.

 

[Matrixryu]

Those work pretty well too. Though, aren't the blackguard abilities supposed to replace preexisting Paladin abilities (like he has paladin powers, then loses them)? I'm not quite sure how that would work with this system.

I've been experimenting with this a bit, but there are two things that I haven't been able to figure out with it:

1. What do you do when the prestige class's saving throws are different from the class that you're modifying? Should you give a bonus/penalty to certain saves, or just ignore it?

2. Should there be a specific level that the new abilities start getting tacked onto?

EDIT:---

Alright, here's something I put together. One of my players wanted his rogue to become an Umbral Disciple (from Magic of Incarnum), so that's why I messed around with this. Basically, once he chooses the 'combination class', he gains a few abilities and loses trap sense. Then, whenever he gains a level, he can choose to swap out one of his old rogue abilities for one of the Umbral Disciple ones he has the prereqs for.

Btw, my player is using a pathfinder rogue, a rogue talent is simmilar to a 3.5 rogue special ability, except they gain them every even level Starting at level 2. In normal 3.5, you might want to have something else they could sacrifice. Also, you would need to add 3 to the skill requirements and change the names to get the 3.5 equivilent.

Yea....this only works properly when the classes you're merging together have a lot of simmilarities. The umbral disciple gains 3d6 sneak attack as he levels up, so that means there aren't as many abilities for the rogue to swap in.

I'll try and come up with something closer that uses 3.5 rules and standard classes for people who don't have all the books that I have, lol.
UMBRAL ROGUE

Rogue/Umbral Disciple combination class

Requirements

To qualify to become an Umbral Rogue, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Skills: Perception 5 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 2 ranks
Essentia Pool: 1.

Combination class options:
When the player gains the Umbral Rogue combination class, he can choose to substitute a rogue ability that he is gaining from a level for any of the following abilities.

Rogue Talent: Step of Shadow, requires lvl 6
Sneak Attack: Embrace of Shadow, requires lvl 8
Rogue Talent: Sight of the Eyeless, requires level 11
Rogue Talent: Soulchilling Strike, requires lvl 14
Sneak Attack: Kiss of Shadows, requires lvl 15

Ability Gained: Essentia Pool, character gains Essentia equal to (rogue lvl-4)/2 rounded down.
Ability Gained: Umbral Willpower, character gains a wisdom save bonus equal to his rogue level divided by 5, rounded down.
Ability Lost: Trap Sense. The rogue’s shifted focus causes him to lose his ability to dodge traps as effectively.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

First thing I'd like to point out is that there's generally no meaningful difference between racial traits, feats, class abilities and prestige class abilities. Most of the game's abilities are arbitrarily dropped into one of those four bags based on game tradition and the designers' personal preconceptions. So naturally, I don't see any problem with putting an ability in more than one bag, if a players asks me. For example:

If a paladin wants to be a blackguard, well, this actually illustrates the silliness of prestige classes in general -- because there can just as easily be a base paladin/blackguard class (ala different flavors of cleric) than a set of abilities and prereqs that force a player to jump through hoops to attain his/her character concept.

If your rogue player wants to have abilities from some incarnum class, by all means let him. I wouldn't even take away SA dice unless what he wants is a new significant ability that scales with level and stacks with SA. I'm not near my books right now, so I can't be exact, but I'll be back with more of my rant.

1. What do you do when the prestige class's saving throws are different from the class that you're modifying? Should you give a bonus/penalty to certain saves, or just ignore it?

Ignore it. Starting your save progressions all over again is one of the things that makes prestige classes [and multiclassing] so clunky.

2. Should there be a specific level that the new abilities start getting tacked onto?

As a [very rough] rule of thumb, simply offer ability X as a feat or class ability when a RAW character would be able to get it via PrC at the earliest.

 

[Matrixryu]

First thing I'd like to point out is that there's generally no meaningful difference between racial traits, feats, class abilities and prestige class abilities. Most of the game's abilities are arbitrarily dropped into one of those four bags based on game tradition and the designers' personal preconceptions. So naturally, I don't see any problem with putting an ability in more than one bag, if a players asks me. For example:

If a paladin wants to be a blackguard, well, this actually illustrates the silliness of prestige classes in general -- because there can just as easily be a base paladin/blackguard class (ala different flavors of cleric) than a set of abilities and prereqs that force a player to jump through hoops to attain his/her character concept.

If your rogue player wants to have abilities from some incarnum class, by all means let him. I wouldn't even take away SA dice unless what he wants is a new significant ability that scales with level and stacks with SA. I'm not near my books right now, so I can't be exact, but I'll be back with more of my rant.

Yea, it is all quite true. And the game designers seem to randomly move abilities into each of those "bags" whenever they see fit anyway, so I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to either

The only thing I'm trying to watch out for is letting players switch out abilities for much stronger ones. With prestige classes, they at least had to usually blow a feat or two to get the prerequisites.

Ignore it. Starting your save progressions all over again is one of the things that makes prestige classes [and multiclassing] so clunky.

Yea, I think I'm going to end up doing that. At the very best I'll let them have an optional ability they could trade something for that would boost a save.

As a [very rough] rule of thumb, simply offer ability X as a feat or class ability when a RAW character would be able to get it via PrC at the earliest.

That's exactly what I did with that 'combination class' idea that I posted up there actually.

I've come up with a little idea...instead of just randomly getting to pick out abilities from a prestige class that they like, the players will be able to (if they want) choose one 'combination class'. If they decide to get it, it makes a few permanent changes to their main class (they might get increased bab in future levels, but also get fewer skill points for example). In addition, they can trade in abilities from their main class for abilities from the prestige class the 'combination class' was based upon.

I'm hoping that I didn't make it too complex, and I'm hoping that it will give players the benefits of a prestige class without the clunkyness. I've tweeked the original one that I posted earlier, but I won't eat up space by reposting the thing just yet. Basically, I added in the additional drawback of -2 skill points per level to balance out the essentia the character begins gaining. Umbral Disciples only gain 6 skill points per level anyway, so it fits better.