D&D 4E Changing the 4e save mechanism.

[Jack99]

The Saving Throw DC is currently always 10. Change this to 10 + ability modifier (without level modifiers) of the attack.
The rolled save is d20 + ability modifier of the defense that the power attacked you with.

A more solid example. A Level 6 Wizard casts Flame Shroud (Int vs Fort) against an Orc Bloordager and a Shadar-Kai Witch. THis results in 5 fire (save ends) (IIRC). Let's pretend our Wizard had an Int of 19 (+4 bonus without level modifier).
The Orc Bloodrager has a Strength of 20 (+5) and a Constitution of 17 (+3). So to end the fire damage, the Orc rolls 1d20+5 vs 14.
The Shadar-Kai Witch has a Strength of 13 (+1) and a Constitution of 13 (+1). So to end the fire damage, she rolls 1d20+1 vs 14.

I see. I think I like keterys' suggestion better, if I were to change something. I do wish however that there was a better system for not being pushed over an edge/into the lava or whatnot.

We talked about granting +1 bonus to the save, if you were trained in acrobatics or athletics, so that there was some variation, but I would rather have another system. /shrug

 

[DracoSuave]

Saving throws don't mean the same thing that they used to however. And there's already mechanics in play that make some monsters less affected to specific effects than others, and that make certain characters more able to make their effects stick than others.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually, the biggest problem I have with the save mechanism, is when used to see if people are pushed into dangerous terrain, or if they are prone on the ground. What's up with that?

I was going to post a thread about this very issue (so I'll mention it here first).

I think this is a bad rule; firstly because it is easily established that the 'saving throw' is now, in most instances, just a duration determinant. Secondly, because it is something that really should scale with level. Your thunderwave hits a peasant and an epic fighter, doing 2 points damage to each and knocking them off the cliff. Both have the same 55% chance of saving themselves from going over. Why? Doesn't make sense.

My potential fix that I'm considering - make either an athletics check or acrobatics check (or possibly an endurance check) against the attackers attack DC +10 (or an appropriate moderate skill check for the given level of monster). This allows strong, fast or tough people to be less likely to knocked off balconies, unless they are fighting similar or higher level opponents.

Cheers

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I think completely scraping the save system for a DC system ala 3E (roll vs the attacker's target number) Is a bad idea. It seems ripe for abuse. Whatever numbers the difficulty class is based on, those will likely be exploited to make for irresistible attacks. (at least any optimizer or munchkin would do so; so if you don't deal with gamers like that don't worry about it).

If the concept of the 20th level wizard failing to put to sleep the lvl 4 bugbear bothers you, what you could do is instigate a bonus (or penalty) to saves equal to the level difference.
For each level above the level of the attacker, you could add +1 to the save. For each level below, subtract 1. This makes higher or lower level combatants a bit more or less likely to press lingering conditions. Since foes 6 or more levels lower are not even a challenge for characters, the fact that they will probably fail their saves anyway wont matter; a DM probably won't waste time on a major encounter like that. Foes 6 or more levels higher will pretty much stomp a party into the dust anyway, so the fact that they always resist conditions or lingering damage is icing on the cake compared to the incoming TPK.

Example:
A 20th level wizard zaps a bugbear warrior (lvl 4 lets say) with Sleep. He can't possibly miss. Sleep hits, and the bugbear attempts his save: Since he is a whole 16 levels lower than the wizard, he doesn't have a prayer. Zzzzzz...
A 14th level Drow Wizard poisons, via a spell, a 17th level human Warlord. The Warlord, when saving against the poison, is +3 to the roll for being 3 levels ahead of the Drow.

Adds a bit more simulationism into the game. (characters 9 levels above their foes always save, and their own saves are pretty much unmakeable)

 

[Saeviomagy]

I see. I think I like keterys' suggestion better, if I were to change something. I do wish however that there was a better system for not being pushed over an edge/into the lava or whatnot.

Personally if I was going to change this, I'd make the choice to fall prone and not into the harmful terrain an automatic thing unless you are already prone, at which point over you go! I think that removes the need for a save roll and makes saving oneself a more likely occurrence, and at the same time being pushed off a cliff remains a dangerous proposition.

 

[Jack99]

I was going to post a thread about this very issue (so I'll mention it here first).

I think this is a bad rule; firstly because it is easily established that the 'saving throw' is now, in most instances, just a duration determinant. Secondly, because it is something that really should scale with level. Your thunderwave hits a peasant and an epic fighter, doing 2 points damage to each and knocking them off the cliff. Both have the same 55% chance of saving themselves from going over. Why? Doesn't make sense.

My potential fix that I'm considering - make either an athletics check or acrobatics check (or possibly an endurance check) against the attackers attack DC +10 (or an appropriate moderate skill check for the given level of monster). This allows strong, fast or tough people to be less likely to knocked off balconies, unless they are fighting similar or higher level opponents.

Cheers

Thanks, glad I am not alone in this. As mentioned about, we gave people trained in either a +1 bonus to the save. This was mostly because I hadn't run the numbers. Considering that it is very easy to get big modifiers to your skill checks, I am afraid it might give some classes virtual immunity to being pushed into traps and other fun stuff. But I guess someone will have to run it through some math, to test it.

Personally if I was going to change this, I'd make the choice to fall prone and not into the harmful terrain an automatic thing unless you are already prone, at which point over you go! I think that removes the need for a save roll and makes saving oneself a more likely occurrence, and at the same time being pushed off a cliff remains a dangerous proposition.

I wouldn't like that. Pushing people over the edge or into the fire is fun. We had a great fight on the top of a 5 story building, with people getting pushed off right and left. Cleric was lucky and landed with 1 hp left, after I rolled 8 on 4d10. The bad guy wizard was not so lucky when he got bullrushed over the edge by the dwarf fighter. It was a great encounter, and both my players and I can't wait for the next of that type.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I see. I think I like keterys' suggestion better, if I were to change something. I do wish however that there was a better system for not being pushed over an edge/into the lava or whatnot.

We talked about granting +1 bonus to the save, if you were trained in acrobatics or athletics, so that there was some variation, but I would rather have another system. /shrug

It still doesn't solve MrMyths "problems" - It are still the same modifiers involved, you just keep the onus on the attacker to roll so there is no extra math involved.

A high attack vs a low defense for save ends powers only "works" because most of these powers are limited (recharge or encounter powers for monsters). In many (or "some", but enough to make it count) cases, the save roll is easier for the PC then avoiding to get hit with a power.

 

[Jack99]

It still doesn't solve MrMyths "problems" - It are still the same modifiers involved, you just keep the onus on the attacker to roll so there is no extra math involved.

A high attack vs a low defense for save ends powers only "works" because most of these powers are limited (recharge or encounter powers for monsters). In many (or "some", but enough to make it count) cases, the save roll is easier for the PC then avoiding to get hit with a power.

Good point, I guess it will have to stay as is, or as you suggest. Will probably stay as is, in my case.

Cheers

 

[Henry]

I like the save mechanic because in my opinion some things should remain just as hard to do at 30th level as they do at 1st - chances to fall after being shoved over a cliff edge being one example.

 

[vagabundo]

Am I alone in loving the save system?

I like that there are limited additions to the saves.

I like that it is quick and pretty straightforward.

And it avoids the multiplier issue that can result from high level characters getting to stack the same modifiers a few times to avoid the same effect. The ability modifier is only added once - in the defense - and if you get hit you may get a save that round, but it is straight save.