Chaos vs Order

[Negative Zero]

here's a random thought i just had.

if Darkness is simply the absence of Light (failed ABC show Miracles notwithstanding) is Chaos the absence of Order? or is it the other way around?

i suppose that the core of the answer might revolve around whether you believe the natural order of the univese to be one of choas or one of balance (or order within the chaos)

... or is that a paradox? hmmm

whaddaya think?

~NegZ

 

[Dinkeldog]

Most mythologies hold that chaos is the original state and order was imposed on that chaos. I would probably go with that as a starting point.

 

[Lela]

Well, couldn't light be the absence of Darkness? And is Good really represented well by being equated with Light anyway?

Good, as an anthromorphic force, likely wouldn't hide itself from those who seek after it. But does that mean that it's filled with light or that darkness simply can't hide it? After all, sometimes light is blinding and, fun symitries and medaphors ignored, would be just as effective at hiding Good from view as Darkness.

Of course, it's just a thought (and I don't believe any of it) but still, it is worth considering.

 

[Phaedrus]

Good and Light are the "dominant" ones.

Evil is never for its own sake, it is always a lack of good or mistaken means chosen in pursuit of a (perceived) good. Example: the typical bad guy trying to take over the world, killing everyone that gets in his way, is pursuing the "good" of self-fulfillment (or some other good). He's just got his priorities whacked. Hitler gave good gifts to his friends at Christmas. And I doubt anyone truly thinks of themselves as evil. The true dirt bags will talk about higher morality, or transcending morality, or ignoring morality, but they won't call themselves evil.

No amount of darkness, however much you pile it on, can put out a single candle. Light trumps darkness.

But you asked about chaos and order, didn't you?
I'd say order comes first, and then degrades (2nd law thermodynamics).

 

[Umbran]

Well, it depends upon your metaphysic.

In the real world, darkness is the absence of light. In D&D, however, that is not true. The world has different (magical) physics, where there are spells that have darkness trumping light, that have darnkess as a thing that like light, can be emitted.

Sometimes a person does evil, but not in the name of a percieved good. A person can, in fact, choose to do a thing simply because it hurts others. It's rare, but it does happen. In a fictional w0rld, perhaps it happens even more often.

Whether the "natural state" is Chaos, or Order, or Balance, depends on what you are calling the natural state. Is the natural state the void before creation? Is it a non-void before creation? Is it creation before sentient creatures? Is it the state of sentient creatures without the meddling of gods?

You tell me what the natural state is, then we can discuss if it is orderly, disorderly, or neither.

 

[Impeesa]

If you want to go by real-world physics, darkness is the absence of light and order is the absence of chaos. Entropy (basically, randomness) is defined as a thermodynamic quantity, by removing entropy you impose a state of order. Or something like that. But yes, the natural order is towards chaos, unless your campaign's particular metaphysics dictate otherwise.

--Impeesa--

 

[S'mon]

Entropy and Chaos don't necessarily equate - Chaos implies Change and Creation, whereas Entropy tends towards an unvariegated undifferentiated state (heat death of the universe). Chaos in this sense is Moorcockian, Entropy is scientific.

(Chaos theory is quite different).

Likewise, Law implies both Order and Stability, which can include stagnation. Thus in one Eternal Champion story the Realm of Ultimate Law was a place that was totally uniform, where nothing ever changed. The general approach is that both total Chaos & total Law tend towards Entropy and that lasting creation requires a Balance between them, ie both are necessary. Thus ultimately Law is not the absence of Chaos, nor Chaos the absence of Law - they are different, _complementary_ properties and both are necessary for the multiverse to exist.

 

[Spike]

tough, yet simple

I believe that there is no Light or Dark, only the shadow from the balence of both in equality, one happens in response to the other, things can be happening in both states at once, there is no order, no chaos, only the advancement of time as things happen.

 

[Negative Zero]

... by removing entropy you impose a state of order. ...

but doesn't this pretty much say the opposite of what you wanted? cause the question was, is chaos the absence of order or vice versa? the quote above, to me, implies that by romoving entropy (i.e. creating it's absence) you're left with order.

Originally posted by Lela
Well, couldn't light be the absence of Darkness? And is Good really represented well by being equated with Light anyway? ...

well if you asume that light is actually something, and darkenss is nothing, then yes. light is a form of energy, right? that makes it an actual thing. perhaps not a tangible thing, but a thing none the less. darkness on the other hand doesn't seem to actually be a "thing" barring the metaphysical implications of evil.

i wasn't trying to equate light and dark with good and evil. i only used it as an analogy to illustrate my chaos/order Q. but since you brought it up, traditionally, good is represented by light. there are dozens, probably hundreds of references to the light of God, and none that i know of that reference the dark of God saving anyone.

Good may not hide itself from anyone, per se, however it seems to be a commonly held fact that the path of good is the more difficult of the two and requires a more active role on the part of the seeker (no, not that Potter kid). therefore light might in fact be a more accurate representative of good, as light is not found everywhere, but the dark must be traversed and/or pushed back in order to find the light, thereby vindivating your efforts and making the end worth of the journey.

... but i digress. (and how!)

Originally posted by Spike
...there is no order, no chaos, only the advancement of time as things happen.

but doesn't time in fact imply order? time is very deliberate and very methodical. in fact time has more patience than anyone/thing. which sounds like a pretty good argument for the ultimate order, actually

S'mon,
i have to admit that i don't really understand the difference between entropy and chaos. ... time to hit up dictionary.com again! *sigh*

~NegZ

 

[AEtherfyre]

Eh. I think, personally, that Chaos and Order are terms that are just as useful - and scientifically accurate - as Good and Evil.

In other words, the universe isn't going to back up any particular definition of either.

If Chaos is a force of change, and Order one of stasis, Order is the absence of Chaos.

If Order is a force of rules, of law, of control, Chaos is anarchy - the absence of Order.

Any debate has to define Chaos and Order first, and that isn't necissarily going to be easy, though it probably won't be as - heated - as the debates on the nature of Good and Evil.

Personally, I'd go with Order and Chaos as competing forces, neither of which are benevolent, both of which are necissary. It makes for more interesting plots - killing everyone on one side might not be a good idea, after all.