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Chaos with At-Will Cantrips, and Casting Discretion

Cryptos

First Post
Only half-joking:

Looking again at cantrips, they seem almost too good. I started thinking that these seemingly minor things could cause all manner of havoc with a creative player due to several things, unless casting cantrips is so blindingly obvious that everyone knows the wizard just cast a spell:

1) Descriptions are short and concise, there isn't a lot of "you can't do this" or "you can't do that."
2) At-Will activation, Minor action, free action cancel.

One could, conceivably, walk around town and create all kinds of suspicious noises all over the place, occupying the city guard with reports of crimes and fighting, or use sound to suggest that a wanted criminal is roaming the back alleys, while the rogue robs the city blind. Or have entire phantom conversations taking place just around the corner, all over the city, causing rumors about the Prince to spread like wildfire. You could make some poor girl think she's the next Joan of Arc by following her into the temple and having "God" talk to her every time by using the 'whisper' function. Or make someone think they're going crazy ("my mug of ale just told me to kill everyone!") Never mind the potential for bar fights when you can sit there and make all kinds of noises, at will, around you.

Even if you reasonably decide that it's only one sound at a time: one voice, one effect of metal clanking against metal, one thud of a body hitting the ground, etc, at a time; the fact that you can produce and cancel the sounds at will makes a wizard with this cantrip a walking sound effects mixing board.

Sure, this might make a fun Skill Encounter for a game... the wizard trying to walk around town unnoticed, keeping the guards distracted with Ghost Sounds, while the rogue goes on a thieving spree. But there's no chance of failure in terms of the Ghost Sound itself, and it seems pretty flexible, and as though the wizard can do these things without fail all the time, etc....

The only major limiting factor would appear to be what the DM rules on the fly, and how obvious a wizard is when he's casting - can he be discrete? I'd have to say that they probably either don't say, or that the level of discretion is implied by the spell ("you can whisper quietly enough that only creatures adjacent to the target hear the words" would sort of lose its benefit if accompanied by a lot of wand waving, gesticulating, and flashing lights.)

With Mage Hand, at least, there is a spectral hand floating in the air. But it's still a lot more flexible than before, and I could see wizards using it all the time to: pick up suspicious items that might be a trap trigger, handle potentially dangerous materials, create distractions, threaten to drop and break a valuable item if the bad guy doesn't back down, etc, etc. Also, unless it's a big, blue, glowing spectral hand, it's got to be a lot less visible than a hand attached to a human body. And the cantrip description doesn't answer questions such as, "Can I use it to hover a goblet of acid over someone from behind them while I'm talking to them, and then spill it?"

It all seems to come down to: how visible is the spectral hand (vs. a live hand with a person attached), and how discretely can I cast the spell? Which doesn't seem to be addressed.

It just seems like I'd be using these things all the time. Or at least, asking a lot questions to see how much a DM will let me use them. That's a pretty big jump from when cantrips were forgotten until the wizard ran out of all his other spells. Some of these look even better (in the hands of a creative or mischievous player) than some of the higher level utility powers they've shown us - largely because they're at will and / or somewhat subtle.
 
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FadedC

First Post
Well I'm not sure what casting is like in 4e. But in 3e it involves speaking in a loud and clear voice while making obvious hand gestures. I suspect people might pay more attention to that then some of the ghost sounds you are creating.

Of course who knows what things will be like in 4e and if there will be a silent spell type ability. Ultimately though a wizard could pretty much do all of that in 3e too if he could find a way to cast discretely. Not like people tended to run out of cantrips.
 

WhatGravitas

Explorer
Protagonist said:
yeah, and that's AWESOME
1) Was it necessary to quote everything in the first reply? :\
2) Agreed. They're powerful in terms of creativity instead of raw combat power. And encourage role-play - for their judging their power - ghost sound isn't much more than really elaborate ventriloquism (in concept). You still have to stay near the target. It's not much more harm than smuggling in little notes. And for distracting sounds... well, that's the point.

Similarly for mage hand. And I guess, if you want something *really* clever, it will use some kind of stunt system, that 4E should possess.

Cheers, LT.
 

Cryptos

First Post
FadedC said:
Of course who knows what things will be like in 4e and if there will be a silent spell type ability. Ultimately though a wizard could pretty much do all of that in 3e too if he could find a way to cast discretely. Not like people tended to run out of cantrips.

True, but in 3e there was a limit.

If you told a player "You can create any sound, in noise level from a whisper to a shout, within 10 squares, discretely and at will, from first level as a minor action, and there is no saving throw or roll to succeed" I think the results would tend to be a bit different than "You can cast this Ghost Sound as a standard action nine times per day using material, verbal and somatic components and a Will save negates the effect, or you can save up your cantrips to toss acid balls at people for 1d3 points of damage."
 

bganon

Explorer
Cryptos said:
One could, conceivably, walk around town and create all kinds of suspicious noises all over the place, occupying the city guard with reports of crimes and fighting, or use sound to suggest that a wanted criminal is roaming the back alleys, while the rogue robs the city blind.

First, while the description for Ghost Sound doesn't say so explicitly, I get the sense that the sound doesn't continue after the round that you cast it. In any case, if a rogue can rob the city blind just because the guards heard some sounds, they could do it just as easily even if someone had provided a perfectly mundane distraction. Any city with decent guards isn't going to be suddenly crippled by a single distraction, and maybe not even by a series of distractions.

Also, Ghost Sound has a range of 50 feet. If a clever guard happens to notice the same wizard at the scene of every funny noise...

Or have entire phantom conversations taking place just around the corner, all over the city, causing rumors about the Prince to spread like wildfire. You could make some poor girl think she's the next Joan of Arc by following her into the temple and having "God" talk to her every time by using the 'whisper' function. Or make someone think they're going crazy ("my mug of ale just told me to kill everyone!") Never mind the potential for bar fights when you can sit there and make all kinds of noises, at will, around you.

Which is awesome, really. But keep in mind, in the D&D world pretty much every wizard is going to be able to perform cantrips like this. If funny noises keep popping up, people are going to start blaming the guy in the funny hat.

Actually, people might just jump to "blame the wizard" anytime anything funny happens, whether it's really their fault or not. This wouldn't be far from real life, really.

With Mage Hand, at least, there is a spectral hand floating in the air. But it's still a lot more flexible than before, and I could see wizards using it all the time to: pick up suspicious items that might be a trap trigger, handle potentially dangerous materials, create distractions, threaten to drop and break a valuable item if the bad guy doesn't back down, etc, etc. Also, unless it's a big, blue, glowing spectral hand, it's got to be a lot less visible than a hand attached to a human body. And the cantrip description doesn't answer questions such as, "Can I use it to hover a goblet of acid over someone from behind them while I'm talking to them, and then spill it?"

Maybe not big, but probably glowing. And again, it's not explicit in the rules we've seen but it seems reasonable to think that directing the hand requires some gesturing, and that it'd take a Bluff check (at least) to hover an acid goblet over someone and then drop it. (BTW, do you really have goblets of acid lying around all over the place in your games?)

It just seems like I'd be using these things all the time. Or at least, asking a lot questions to see how much a DM will let me use them. That's a pretty big jump from when cantrips were forgotten until the wizard ran out of all his other spells. Some of these look even better (in the hands of a creative or mischievous player) than some of the higher level utility powers they've shown us - largely because they're at will and / or somewhat subtle.

Well, I think they are meant to be used all the time. But better than being invisible, flying, +6 to AC, or having huge energy resistance?
 

WhatGravitas

Explorer
bganon said:
BTW, do you really have goblets of acid lying around all over the place in your games?
Also: Acid is usually clear. Hovering a acid goblet silently is no different from holding an innocent-looking mug with "water" in your hand, then throwing it in somebody's face.

Cheers, LT.
 



Atlatl Jones

Explorer
Lord Tirian said:
Also: Acid is usually clear. Hovering a acid goblet silently is no different from holding an innocent-looking mug with "water" in your hand, then throwing it in somebody's face.
Bah, everyone knows that acid is neon green and bubbles. ;)
 

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