Chapter 4: Vehilce Creation (+ part list!)

[Wyvern]

I haven't read this whole thread; I'll need to read your vessel construction rules before I can make sense of it, and I want to get my character creation updates finished before I do that. However, just skimming through, there are a couple of things that stuck out which I can comment on right now.

1) As I mentioned in my comments on barsoomcore's piloting rules, vessel stat blocks ought to include a line stating whether they're capable of water landings, ground landings, both, or neither.

2) Hardness should not scale by size. A Colossal wooden object isn't any harder than a Medium-sized one, it just has more hit points. See p. 136 in the PHB for a clarification of the relationship between size and hit points.

For the record, using the Wisdom score for piloting was not my idea, and I've yet to have it explained to me as to WHEN you get to do that. I know its supposed to be built into the vehilce, but what is the concept here? that it is a smart vehilce (computer controlled) so you plot courses instead of turning a stick? Is this an option we allow on all vehilces (even fighters?) or is it limited to larger vehilces?

3) Wis-based pilot checks are primarily used for three purposes: sailcraft, ballooncraft, and some large vessels (generally those of ocean-liner size and above). The reason Wis is used for these is that experience, good judgment, and being aware of your surroundings are more important in steering these kinds of vessels than good co-ordination and reflexes. It wasn't a clumsy pilot that steered the Titanic into an iceberg, it was an unobservant one.

I don't think that vessels which use Wisdom for piloting checks should also use it to modify AC and Reflex saves. However, I'm not sure Dex applies either. Frankly, it's just hard to imagine a star destroyer or a sky-galleon dodging attacks. If nothing else, I think that both the handling modifier and the turn modifier (which is based on maneuverability class) should be applied to AC and Reflex saves. What are your thoughts?

Wyvern

 

[barsoomcore]

A vehilce's Dexterity score is the Pilot's score.

I disagree. A vehicle has NO Dexterity score. That is the defining characteristic of a vehicle. No Dex means it is unable to maneuver itself.

A vehicle has Strength because it can apply force. It may have Constitution because it may be healthy or not. It can have Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma because it can have a personality. But it cannot have Dexterity. It cannot turn or accelerate unless a pilot uses the controls. It is the pilot's skill that determines the maneuverability of the vessel.

A vehicle's reflex save is the pilot's save minus the handling modifier (because it involves moving).

I'm not sure about this. I like it because it's simple (though I think you mean PLUS the handling modifier -- a better modifier should give a better save), but I'm not sure it's appropriate in all circumstances. My other instinct is to use the pilot's Piloting skill modifier, but that causes a problem with creatures -- should they get their Reflex Save or their Piloting modifier? I say we leave it as the pilot's Reflex Save plus the handling modifier.

I'm currently toying with the idea that the vehilce's Wis and Cha scores are the pilot's score

I don't think that's necessary. A vehicle has its own Wisdom and Charisma scores and thus has its own Will saves and can make Charisma checks normally

Encumbrance. Vehilce should have encumbrance for cargo... and it should probably be listed with cargo bays.

Wouldn't encumbrance just be a function of the cargo itself rather than the bay? Each component has a weight to it, right? So you just add up the weight of all components plus whatever cargo and crew are aboard and you're done. Compare that with STR (modified by size) and boo-yeah.

Problem: when determining the cargo listing do we use light, medium, or heavey.

Sure, why not? Apply all the standard penalties. Max Dex won't matter. The Check Penalty applies to Piloting skill checks. Seems like it'll work just fine to me.

Types: mostly vehicle will be of the Construct, Undead, and Plant types...

See my reply in the "Intelligent Ship" thread for my thoughts on all this. But basically I think that a vessel, whether a creature or a vehicle, can have vessel components. A vehicle has no Dexterity score and requires a pilot. A creature does not. Therefore, I'm thinking we now have TWO type modifiers, Vessels and Vehicles. But let's discuss this over there.

Speed, Lift, Glide, manuvering, the works: So your idea for determing these improtant features is this(?):
1) a ship's minum speed is determined by comparing it's Primary Lift againts it's Size. If it's Primary Lift is equal to or greater then its HD, then it's min. speed is 0 (hover).

Right.

2)If the ship's Primary Lift is not equal to or greater then its HD, then we subtract the Primary Lift & Speed Lift from the HD, take the resulting number and use that to determine the Min. Speed (but the speed must 30' or more). The vehilce's engines must meet that speed or better to fly in gravity.

Not sure that's the way it'll work. But the idea is that you subtract the Pure Lift from the number of Hit Dice, take the remainder and use it in some function with the Speed Lift to determine Minumum Speed. We need a function that, given a positive remainder, will always return a non-zero value for Minimum Speed.

3) speed is determiend by adding up all Speed points & glide speed points and comparing it to a table.

Yep, sound good.

4) Glide speed is determiend by adding up all glide speed points (which come from components that do not need power) and comparing that to the same table above.

Glide Speed and Maneuverability are qualities of components. A wing, for example, supplies Speed Lift, Glide Speed, Maneuverability and Glide Maneuverability values. An engine provides Strength, Speed and Maneuverability values.

5) Manuveribilty and Glide man. work in the same way. The table lists clumsy as the worst option for a vehicle/vessel.

Right. We are talking about vessels here, to be specific. Both vehicles and creatures.

How do we do Vehilce STR scores?

I think components should include STR values just like Speed or Maneuverability. Total up the STR values of all components, work in size somehow, and we're done. There doesn't have to be a correlation between STR and Speed, right? So an engine may provide both, but a component like "Streamlined Design" or "Smooth Finish" may provide Speed without Strength.

Vessel melee weapons that don't rely on a vessel's Strength may include their own (like a grappling arm or a tractor beam), but that can be handled case-by-case in the weapon descriptions.

And Then...

Wyvern mumbled:
I don't think that vessels which use Wisdom for piloting checks should also use it to modify AC and Reflex saves. However, I'm not sure Dex applies either. Frankly, it's just hard to imagine a star destroyer or a sky-galleon dodging attacks. If nothing else, I think that both the handling modifier and the turn modifier (which is based on maneuverability class) should be applied to AC and Reflex saves. What are your thoughts?

See? If we say vehicles don't have Dexterity then this whole problem goes away. They don't apply any Dexterity modifier to AC or Reflex Saves because they don't have any. We don't care if they're piloted via Wisdom or Dexterity for these purposes. I'm not sure they should get Handling and Turn modifiers applied to AC -- then creatures should, too, and that means we have to change, for example, the Griffin as written. It now gets a Turn modifier (for its Maneuverability Class) applied to its AC while flying. I don't think that's right.

Now creatures get a Dex modifier to AC but of course they do. They have a Dexterity.

If a pilot wants to improve her vehicle's AC she can perform a Complex Stunt. That's why it's there -- to allow Piloting expertise to apply to AC. But if the pilot's not making a particular effort to avoid attacks or make her vehicle hard to target then the vehicle doesn't get any bonus to AC.

Huh? Huh? Am I being convincing here?

 

[BlackJaw]

See? If we say vehicles don't have Dexterity then this whole problem goes away. They don't apply any Dexterity modifier to AC or Reflex Saves because they don't have any. We don't care if they're piloted via Wisdom or Dexterity for these purposes. I'm not sure they should get Handling and Turn modifiers applied to AC -- then creatures should, too, and that means we have to change, for example, the Griffin as written. It now gets a Turn modifier (for its Maneuverability Class) applied to its AC while flying. I don't think that's right.

Now creatures get a Dex modifier to AC but of course they do. They have a Dexterity.

If a pilot wants to improve her vehicle's AC she can perform a Complex Stunt. That's why it's there -- to allow Piloting expertise to apply to AC. But if the pilot's not making a particular effort to avoid attacks or make her vehicle hard to target then the vehicle doesn't get any bonus to AC.

Huh? Huh? Am I being convincing here?

So we now say that a vehicle's armor class is just from natural, armor (as in metal plates bolted to the hull), and some special systems like sheild generators, deflection inducers, etc.

Does:
That means a pilot's Dex modifier is not used? (or did you mean that the Vehilce's dex score didn't apply ontop of the pilot's?)
That means a pilot's Dodge feat doesn't apply?
That means a Pilot's Inisght bonus doesn't apply?
That means a Monk/Pilot's Wisdom bonus doesn't apply?

Are you also saying that a vehilce's reflex save is not that of its pilot + Handling modifier?

What about Initative... the pilot's Init score uses the pilot's Dex.

I firmly support pilot reflex saves. I support at least SOME AC bonuses a pilot has affecting his vehilce (Insight, Dodge feats, and similar powers) but this does require that we draw up a list of what does and doesn't work. (that's ok, there is a list in the DMG of all named bonus types, and we can simply look through them).

 

[barsoomcore]

Does:
That means a pilot's Dex modifier is not used? (or did you mean that the Vehilce's dex score didn't apply ontop of the pilot's?)

I mean the pilot's Dex modifier is not used. If the pilot wants to use their Dexterity and skill to increase their vehicle's AC they can perform a Complex Stunt.

That means a pilot's Dodge feat doesn't apply?

I don't really see why it should. Why would the ability to duck a sword translate into the ability to turn a ship aside from a laser bolt?

That means a Pilot's Inisght bonus doesn't apply?

What insight bonus? An insight bonus to the pilot's Piloting skill check would make a Complex Stunt easier. But an insight bonus to the pilot's AC? I don't see that it should apply to the vehicle's AC. But it's the best option presented here. MAYBE insight bonuses apply.

That means a Monk/Pilot's Wisdom bonus doesn't apply?

Right. Why should it? It seems bizarre to me that it would.

Are you also saying that a vehilce's reflex save is not that of its pilot + Handling modifier?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not convinced that that is the best solution, but I don't have a better one. This has nothing to do with the issue of vehicle Dexterity, though.

What about Initative... the pilot's Init score uses the pilot's Dex.

Sure. The pilot still has a Dex score, after all. They roll Initiative normally. The vehicle doesn't roll Initiative, the pilot does.

I firmly support pilot reflex saves.

Explain to me how they apply to a balloon.

I support at least SOME AC bonuses a pilot has affecting his vehilce (Insight, Dodge feats, and similar powers) but this does require that we draw up a list of what does and doesn't work. (that's ok, there is a list in the DMG of all named bonus types, and we can simply look through them).

Yeah, we could do that. That's got nothing to do with the pilot's Dexterity score. I think there could certainly be feats a pilot could take to improve her vehicle's AC.

 

[Sidran]

Off the top of my head the Vehicle creation rules do not seem easy which is something that should be able to be done.

Some stuff not finished that I have worked on a little bit follows


VEHICLE TRAITS
Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)

The Score of these traits ranges from 0 to infinity. A limit, if any, will be specified in the rules. The average vehicle ranges from 3 to 18. It is possible for a vehicle to have a score of "none". A score of "none" is not the same as a score of "0". A score of "none" means that the vehicle does not possess the ability at all. The modifier for a score of "none" is +0.
* DUR 0 means that the vehicle has been destroyed.
* MAN 0 means that the vehicle cannot move at all. It lies
Motionless, adrift, and helpless.
* APT 0 means that the vehicle can not compute, and is
malfunctioning, leaving it helpless.
*PER 0 means that the vehicle’s ability to perceive obstacles is 0
ft from itself, leaving open to attack
*PHY 0 means that the vehicle is beyond cosmetic repair, and its
value is diminished .

Keeping track of negative trait score points is never necessary. A Vehicles traits can not drop below 0.


Also you are missing vehicle Initiative for Vehicle combat.

And I think that we should assume that vehicles are all non living objects namely because there is a word for a living aerial ride " Mounts"

A Glder is not a mount, and a drake is not a Vehicle there I said it.

What I am thinking though is this have the Vehicle stats be similar to the Monster stats

With Initiative being figured by the MNR modifier, and such Design Foci as Improved Initiative (I.E the vehicular form of the Feat)

Also this would allow for the Vehicle Subtypes to be as such


VEHICLE SUBTYPES

There are four subtypes of vehicles

* Submercible (SUB)
* Aerial (ARL)
* Space (SPC)
* Interspacial (INP)

In addition there are variations of these subtypes which are as folows.

* Submercible, Deep

* Aerial, Low

* Aerial. High

* Space, Deep

Submercible- means that the vehicle can function underwater, or in the thick gasses of a heavy atmosphere such as that of Jupiter. Vehicles with this type can exist underwater where as Aerial vehicles can not.

Deep Submercible - is an extention of the depth, or the amount of pressure a submercible vehicle can sustain before it implodes. Vehicles equiped to delve deaper into to an atmosphere such as Jupiter Gas Miners, or Dwarven Ironboats do not suffer the Durabilty troubles that vehicles with only the submercible subtype will.

Aerial - Vehicles with this subtype can fly within a certain hight from the ground depending on their size and power output.
Note that some vehicle sizes are just to big to be able to fly unless they are unique examples of their size category, or magical*

Low Altitude Vehicles with this subtype are usually weaker than those that can fly higher into the upper atmosphere, Biplanes, Triplanes, and Zepplins are good examples of this type of craft. Vehicles made mechanically in this subtype have a tendancy to stall out if they get higher than there max altitude

High Altitude Vehicles of this type are capable of reaching the upper reaches of an atmosphere, nearly breaching the fine line between being an aerial craft and a space craft. Spyplanes, early rockets, and modern weather bloons are good examples of these craft.


Space Vehicles of this type are capable of sustaining the extreme vacuum of space, where the temperature rises very high, and drops very low depending on the areas hit by solar rays. They are capable of some protection against radiation from solar flares. Examples of this are the Space station Mir, the Space Shuttles, and most of the vessels found in the pages of science fiction.

Deep space Vessels of this type are those that are able to support or suspend life through the long cold dark of deep space. Vessels such as Cryogenic century ships, and Generation vessels are good examples of this type of vehicle.

Intraspacial Vehicles with this subtype are capable of all types of atmospheric travel whether in the depths of a gas giant or in the long dark of deep space.


Old subtypes such as cold, fire, heat, electricity and the like should be shown rather in design foci, or in strait out SQ' s

Such as a Space vessel should probably have Cold, and Heat Resistance +20, but also it should have Radiation Resistance +20 also. (with twenty being an example.)

 

[barsoomcore]

Off the top of my head the Vehicle creation rules do not seem easy which is something that should be able to be done.

Please indicate which bits you're having difficulty with. Ease of use is critical.

Some stuff not finished that I have worked on a little bit follows

None of this stuff fits with anything already created -- that's five chapters' worth of material. Are you saying your ideas are so much better that we should throw out all the work we've done so far?

I don't think these ideas are that much better.

VEHICLE TRAITS
Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)

I thought the goal of this project was to create a set of aerospatial movement and combat rules to enable d20 GMs to incorporate flying/spacefaring vessels into their campaigns. I do not agree that this goal requires creating a whole new set of attributes. I'm very surprised to see this being presented.

Also you are missing vehicle Initiative for Vehicle combat.

Vehicles don't roll Initiative. Why would they? Did you note in the post directly above yours that I wrote: The vehicle doesn't roll Initiative, the pilot does? Please, read before you post.

And I think that we should assume that vehicles are all non living objects namely because there is a word for a living aerial ride " Mounts"

Incorrect. Please refer to earlier parts of this thread, the thread on Chapter2 and BlackJaw's thread on Intelligent vehicles.

What I am thinking though is this have the Vehicle stats be similar to the Monster stats [/b]

Well right now we have vessel stats IDENTICAL to monster stats so how much more similar do you want?

There are four subtypes of vehicles

* Submercible (SUB)
* Aerial (ARL)
* Space (SPC)
* Interspacial (INP)

Once again I have to ask -- have you read the existing material? Our current rules are intended to cover all these situations. Please point out how your suggestions are improvements to what we currently have.

And explain why we need these subtypes, please.

Old subtypes such as cold, fire, heat, electricity and the like should be shown rather in design foci, or in strait out SQ' s

I thought you wanted things to be similar to monster stats so why change all this needlessly?

Look, I know it can be difficult to draw rules out of ongoing discussion threads so here's the basics of what's being proposed for vessel creation:

A Vessel type modifier can be applied to any creature type. The Vessel type modifier allows the vessel to acquire Vessel Components -- like mounted weapons, cargo holds, control systems, power systems, engines and so on. A list of these is provided, along with rules on how to apply them.

A Vehicle type modifier can be applied to any Aberration, Construct, Plant or Undead creature that also has the Vessel Type modifier. A vehicle has no Dexterity and cannot take a double move or a run action.

Under these ideas, a 747 is a Construct with both the Vessel and Vehicle type modifiers. A red dragon with a laser turret on its back is a Dragon with a Vessel type modifier.

There's still things to be worked out with these approaches but these fit with everything we've done so far and I believe (and I think Blackjaw and Wyvern do too, but I won't speak for them) that we can find clean and elegant solutions to the existing problems. I don't think this is needlessly complicated (as BlackJaw said, it can be like creating a 20th-level character, so some complexity is necessary. It's also very much like creating a brand new monster -- if you want to follow the rules it's complicated. It just is.

But replacing all the standard D&D ability stats? Why bother?

 

[Sidran]

First answers to your post above


I do not think that a Vehicle say for instance a Flying bathtub should be "alive" is a space shuttle alive, or a biplane

I think that rules for living vehicles should be in here but I don't want as a DM to have every contraption that flies alive.

Tell me the rational behind this, and I will except it otherwise I am just to wierded out ( I will just go with T20, or Dragonstar)

I thought that the goal of this project was to create rules for using aerial, and spacial craft in our campaign vehicles such as Air ships, and Flying Galleons, or for the more Sci-fi ended Elven Starships or the like. Truth is as this has taken so long you have been beat out by the Aerial Adventures books, and the Dragonstar books, and T20, and Spelljammer D20 stuff. There is a massive amount of choice in what I as a DM can use.


As for Initiative, hrm I do not know but I feel that a Init should be the result of a group working together to get a ship to attack first rather than one lone man

After all in a "Dwarven Clockwork Dragon" there is the Pilot (captain), the Bosun, and the treadmill wing motivators,

All in all it is the sum of a crew that should make the Initiative in a round, and not just that of a pilot at the wheel.

The one exception being vehicles with only 1, or 2 stations.

As for my rules stuff that was mostly geared towards my D20 Universe, and why bother, well Does a Vehicle, a non sentinent being have a will, does it have intelligence, or brawn, stamina

No it has similar things AI, Structual strength, and durabilty, It has Scanners, and can be made "aware" of things such as incoming vessels, and unknown objects. But it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness.

Again I think we should assume that all vehicles are non living entities until the Player/ DM says hey this device has been awakened or is indeed a Wizardly Construct, or a living organism

I think that living vessels should be rare, or at least not the standard device. Don't want no goblins in my engine thank you kindly

 

[BlackJaw]

Barsoomcore has said most of what is needed.

I'll just add a couple other bits:

Every vehicle has five basic traits:
* Durability (DUR)
* Maneuver (MNR)
* Aptitude (APT)
* Perception (PRN)
* Physique(PHY)

These traits are just new versions of Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha... (no strength?) I don't see making up new names for standard D&D ability scores making this an easier for people to use. Remember that we are tyring to make this a D&D/D20 project and not inventing our own semi-D&D game.

Submercible- means that the vehicle can function underwater, or in the thick gasses of a heavy atmosphere such as that of Jupiter. Vehicles with this type can exist underwater where as Aerial vehicles can not.

Deep Submercible - is an extention of the depth, or the amount of pressure a submercible vehicle can sustain before it implodes. Vehicles equiped to delve deaper into to an atmosphere such as Jupiter Gas Miners, or Dwarven Ironboats do not suffer the Durabilty troubles that vehicles with only the submercible subtype will.

Your descriptors of vehicle types/subtypes are nice, but only flavor text. For making a vehicle, its important to know what determines the types.

 

[BlackJaw]

You posted a reply just before I finished reading and writing my own, so here's another to your new post:

I do not think that a Vehicle say for instance a Flying bathtub should be "alive" is a space shuttle alive, or a biplane

I think that rules for living vehicles should be in here but I don't want as a DM to have every contraption that flies alive.

We arn't saying that they are alive. Most vehicles are constructs. Constructs are not alive... they are objects. Most D&D games cover animated (not just magic, but machines like robots and vehicles) objects as constructs. Incase Barsoomcore's response above didn't tell you: He and I are currently in a debate about how to handle Living Vehicles... you just walked into the middle of it.

Tell me the rational behind this, and I will except it otherwise I am just to wierded out ( I will just go with T20, or Dragonstar)

I thought that the goal of this project was to create rules for using aerial, and spacial craft in our campaign vehicles such as Air ships, and Flying Galleons, or for the more Sci-fi ended Elven Starships or the like. Truth is as this has taken so long you have been beat out by the Aerial Adventures books, and the Dragonstar books, and T20, and Spelljammer D20 stuff. There is a massive amount of choice in what I as a DM can use.

For the record I have all the dragon star books including the new "imperal equipment gd" and the Dungeon Mags that cover vehicles, that cover Spell Jammer, etc. Those are some uggly rules and are part of the reason why I'm working on this project at all. The Dungeon Mag articles are both closed content and are not avalible for anyone writing anything to use. More then that, they are uggly rule sets. The vehicle rules from dungeon (they had an article on JUST vehicles in general) requires a DM to keep track of the hit points for every 5' square/cube of a vehicle... that's nasty in game play... especialy when it goes into how one 5' square effects the squares near it. The Spelljammer article is fine if your running a game of large ships that float in space because they are just magic (period) and you never want anything resembling a dog fight. Essentialy its rules for how vehilces interact in space, but very little on vehicle VS vehilce combat... But that's what you expect from a short dungeon article.

Have you read any of the vehicle rules from (say Dragon Star or Starwars d20?) These are not great flight rules. They are clunky, and tacked on. The focus of those products was the setting, not the flight rules. Dragon star uses a system of keeping a distance measurement between one ship and all the other ships... no grids. its all done with skill checks and range bubbles etc. You want to build a ship? you take one of their stock crafts and add guns/etc to it until you run out of money. How does that effect CR? If I pit my players in space fighters againts Orcs in space fighters what is the CR? is it my players VS orcs regardless of the equipment difrences?

The Starwars system has been changed 3 times (or more) from when it was released. many people who play it have told me they hate the movement point system because it requires so many extra calculations IN COMBAT. with larger groups it becomes ugly. AND again your vehicle design is a stock ship + as much extra stuff you can afford.

Stock ships are fine in one setting, but if you want to make your own flight setting... well good luck trying to determine the stats for everything on your own with no guides. Also, with no limits as to space inside a vehicle, you start getting "bags of holding" vehicle desings, where massive engines, fuel tanks, and absurb amounts of weapons and systems all seem to fit on a single vehicle because enogh money was thrown at it. I'm working on a system for tweaking vessels more then that. A hull only holds so much stuff (engines, fuel/power cores, weapons, people, etc) and its a bit of a balencing act... but you can lean the balence toward spicific goals... speed, endurance, manuvering, handling, big guns, lots of smaller guns, cargo, or even make a flying "home base" location with brigs, churches, labs, etc.

If your even checking in on the project or working on rules of your own, I'm betting you arn't happy with the rules that are out there either.

As for Initiative, hrm I do not know but I feel that a Init should be the result of a group working together to get a ship to attack first rather than one lone man

After all in a "Dwarven Clockwork Dragon" there is the Pilot (captain), the Bosun, and the treadmill wing motivators,

All in all it is the sum of a crew that should make the Initiative in a round, and not just that of a pilot at the wheel.

The one exception being vehicles with only 1, or 2 stations.

So instead of letting the pilot (who determines the movements of the vehicle) roll for a initative your going to give each vehicle a flat init modifer to represent the little guy in a treadmill, the bosun, and anyone else that keeps the vehilce working? Ok, how do you determine that modifier? average up all the init modifiers of everyone onboard? Take into acount who has what job? (wouldn't the little guy on the tread mill who can't see anyting just keep running all the time regardless of when the vehilce enters combat?) I'd argue that controlling the actions of a vehicle is an action that the pilot takes, and that determining when a pilot (or any NPC/PC) gets to take any actions is done through a Init check for that NPC/PC. THUS a vehicle has no Init score/modifer/etc. A pilot gets to pilot on his turn, and the abilities of he and his crew to move, manuver, and use their vehicle is determiend by that vehilce, but the WHEN (durring the theoretical 6 seconds where everything happens at the same time anyway) is done through normal Init meahtods.

As for my rules stuff that was mostly geared towards my D20 Universe, and why bother, well Does a Vehicle, a non sentinent being have a will, does it have intelligence, or brawn, stamina

No it has similar things AI, Structual strength, and durabilty, It has Scanners, and can be made "aware" of things such as incoming vessels, and unknown objects. But it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness.

Does a zombie, skeleton, stone golem, etc have Inteligence, stamina or "sentinent" characteristics? Not really, but that's why "creatures" can have stats of "-" for things like Int, Con, etc. A Stone Golem "structual strength," "durability," and "it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness." It also uses creature stats. Also, does your Biplane have AI or scanners? not really, but would that require it to use completly new stat formating, terms, and rules?

 

[BlackJaw]

Anyways: in response to Barsoomcore's last response to my questions (IE: before Sidran's first post)

I mean the pilot's Dex modifier is not used [for AC.] If the pilot wants to use their Dexterity and skill to increase their vehicle's AC they can perform a Complex Stunt.

Ok, Dexterity and realted bonuses to AC do not aply to vehilces. fine. It makes sense for vehicles to generaly fly wihout ducking or weaving unless the pilot puts some effort into it. Because Dexterity (generaly) applies to Piloting skill checks, and that applies to the Stunt, A pilot with better Dexterity is still harder to hit this way.

I don't really see why it[Dodge feat] should. Why would the ability to duck a sword translate into the ability to turn a ship aside from a laser bolt?

Because you can just as easily argue that the dodge feat is a character focusing his/her attention on one threat and actively attempting to avoid attacks from that source. Also; one of the goals from this project is for a fun playable set of rules to come out of it. Letting players use things their characters may already have, incluidng feats that seem aplicable, makes it more playable... on the other hand, the Dodge feat gives a dodge bonus to AC, and I'm not sure I wanted to allow all "dodge" bonuses to AC. hmm we need to look at this AC/Reflex save/Pilot's Dexterity thing a bit more.

What insight bonus? An insight bonus to the pilot's Piloting skill check would make a Complex Stunt easier. But an insight bonus to the pilot's AC? I don't see that it should apply to the vehicle's AC. But it's the best option presented here. MAYBE insight bonuses apply.

Insight is a type of modifier. Example: True strike (the spell) gives an insight bonus to Attack. Off the top of my head I don't know what gives insight bonuses to AC, but I have seen it done, and I know that some players/DM make magic items that apply Insight bonuses to attacks, etc. I could have just as easily asked this question about other armor class modifiers. not all of them are armor sitting on a player/etc. I figure most don't apply to a vehicle via the pilot, But some might. Insight is a good example. A bad example would be so called unamed bonuses. Ug...

Right. Why should it[monk's wis bonus to ac]? It seems bizarre to me that it would.

I was just thinking about the playability of difrent character classes as pilots. Before I was unde the impression that a Vehicle should use the pilot's dex modifier, and therefore the monk (who gets wisdom and dex) would get to add in wisdom as well. Your view (which I'm taking on now) is that Dex doesn't apply at all, so therefore the monk gets no bonus from wis either. That works fine.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not convinced that that is the best solution, but I don't have a better one. This has nothing to do with the issue of vehicle Dexterity, though.

This becomes basicaly the only thing left of a vehicle that is determiend by the pilot's score instead of set by the vehicle. Oh, and I've been thinking about this some more, and I feel that instead of the handling modifier (a measurement of how easy it is to fly the vehicle, not its abilty to manuver) we should possibly use it's "turn modifier" which comes directly from a vehicle's manuverability... I do see how this seems clunky though.

Explain to me how they [pilot's reflex save modifier] apply to a balloon.

About your "balloon" refrence... are we talking about a normal hot air balloon... the kind with no propulsion system? The kind that you don't control the flight of but instead drift with the wind and can only manipulate vertical control? I'm not sure a balloon with no engine/sails & rigging/etc counts as a vessel. It doesn't have controlled flight. Now if you add on some propper sails, or propellers with rudders/etc then you get some sort of controled flight. Under that set of rules a pilots ability to react to special threat (reflex saves are for special attacks like guided missiles and dragon's breath) would seem to be his own reaction time (IE throwing on the breaks before you run over that deer in the road) and the vehicle's ability to be controlled (IE: the breaks working). Keep in mind that Reflex saves under D20 are a little odd as you don't actualy move out of the way of the effect. Also remember that many reflex saves are for half damage. This question is also realted to the question of if Character class powers (like thoe of the rogue) apply to their vehicles... can a mid-high level rogue take no damage isntead just half... and later on half damage even on a fail?

Yeah, we could do that [AC from pilot feats/magic items etc lists]. That's got nothing to do with the pilot's Dexterity score. I think there could certainly be feats a pilot could take to improve her vehicle's AC

I think I'll branch this topic out into a new post along with pilot reflex saves. This thread is getting split up a lot.