Chapter 4: Vehilce Creation (+ part list!)

[BlackJaw]

ok I got it done. I think my chapter 4 write up needs more work. After exporting it I realized left one importnat thing out: adding up the price.

A small section before the component list describing the component atributes might be nice too.

anyway:

Chapter 4 ( rtf & htm )
Chapter 4 Component List ( rtf & htm )

 

[barsoomcore]

Hey Blackjaw, great to have you back. This is great stuff here, really. I have a bunch of questions and concerns, and maybe even a suggestion or two, but I think you're taking the right general approach with this. Very cool.

Enough about how clever you are. Let's get on with making it even better:

Why do Aberrations and Plants not have Constitution scores? These types should be exactly the same as in the MM, or else they should have new names.

Why are the types Aberration, Plant and Undead listed on the Traits chart as Organic, Plant and Undead? Why not the same?

Why do Plant and Aberration types get fast healing? Shouldn't they get the normal healing all creatures get -- 1 hp/HD/day?

Could "Vessel" be considered a Type Modifier, like "Cold", "Fire" or "Incorporeal"? That would mean we could use the existing type descriptions for Aberration, Construct, Plant and Undead, modified by the "Vessel" (or maybe "Vehicle") description.

"A vehicle's Dexterity score is that of its Pilot." -- wouldn't this only apply to vehicles whose controls are Dex-based, rather than Wis-based? Maybe vessels simply have no Dexterity score and we have to come up with how they make Reflex Saves, for example.

"Base Hardness" -- isn't this just "Hardness" as defined in PHB, p. 136? Shouldn't it be described just the same way? Hardness has been released in the SRD, so we can use it as is.

Vehicle Size Chart --
"Lift" is undefined.
Why does hardness increase with size?

Speed -- Why can't a vehicle have a speed of 0? Surely a balloon has a speed of 0. I think Speed calculation needs to be rethought. Maybe we shouldn't be using a doubling mechanism -- is there a logic behind that or is it just simpler than making up numbers?

Glide Speed Points -- Components that add speed points surely are things like engines and so on. Why would they add glide speed points? Likewise, wings shouldn't add speed points, but they could certainly add glide speed point. The reference here is misleading because it indicates that only components with Speed points add Glide Speed points.

Maneuverability Points -- what happens if I build a vehicle with no Maneuverability points? Or not enough to make Clumsy? Does it crash if I try to fly it? Or what? We need to cover this.

Lift -- first you say if a vehicle's lift score is lower than its hit dice it cannot fly in gravity. Then you give us a formula for determining a vehicle's minimum speed that appears to depend on the lift score being lower than the vehicle's hit dice. It's unclear. And I think the calculation you're using has some problems. First off, you're assuming lift is generated by speed in all cases. What about lift generated by lighter-than-air effects? Such an effect will ONLY work if the lift is greater than the vehicle's hit dice. Maybe there need to be different categories of lift. Secondly, I think that minimum speed should be independent of a vehicle's Speed rating. That is, for value x of lift at value y of size, minimum speed will always be some function of x and y, regardless of the vehicle's available speed.

In fact, the calculation ought to work such that the lift/size function determines the minimum speed the vehicle must have in order to achieve lift-off. That way, you can design a vehicle that compensates for low lift by having a high Speed.

Vehicle Power -- Not complicated, and never fluctuates. Actual vehicle power is constant. The vehicle crew can, presumably, switch power-consuming components off and on -- make it a move-equivalent action to switch a component off or on, so as a full action you can "unhook" one component and "hook up" another. But there's no need to keep track of "Free Power" -- either a component is on or off, and if it's on, it drains power.

Vehicle Hardness -- do we really need to worry about this? Hardness is a standard quality of objects and any component that affects it ought to say so clearly.

Design Foci: These are like racial or cultural or ancestor feats, right?

Is there any way to bring the Feat mechanic in here? Components are like Feats, really, I suppose.

Stat Block definition is needed. For example, neither Design Focus nor Lift actually need to be listed in the Stat Block, since they are qualities that affect or determine other ratings. It would be good to provide a walk through of the stat block at the beginning of the chapter, much like pages 5-14 of the MM. Then we can have sample vessels, followed by "How-To" notes, perhaps.

 

[BlackJaw]

You think it needs work now, you should have seen my first draft.

I've basicaly reached a point on this chapter where I'm in a rut. I've been working on it for so long that "I can't see the forest from the trees."

I need you guys to help me out here, get a fresh take.... consider what I have as a starting point:

------------------------------

Why do Aberrations and Plants not have Constitution scores? These types should be exactly the same as in the MM, or else they should have new names.

Why are the types Aberration, Plant and Undead listed on the Traits chart as Organic, Plant and Undead? Why not the same?

Why do Plant and Aberration types get fast healing? Shouldn't they get the normal healing all creatures get -- 1 hp/HD/day?

Could "Vessel" be considered a Type Modifier, like "Cold", "Fire" or "Incorporeal"? That would mean we could use the existing type descriptions for Aberration, Construct, Plant and Undead, modified by the "Vessel" (or maybe "Vehicle") description.

"A vehicle's Dexterity score is that of its Pilot." -- wouldn't this only apply to vehicles whose controls are Dex-based, rather than Wis-based? Maybe vessels simply have no Dexterity score and we have to come up with how they make Reflex Saves, for example.

Basicaly, why arn't they more like creatures from which I have blatently taken their names? Good questions. Answer: I dunno. I supose if we are reworkign the system we should take that into acount.

Oh and about vehilces with wisdom piloting... why does this apply to something outside standard piloting skills? A larger vehilce with a computerized control system (or what not) may use wisdom modifiers for piloting, but if your piloting why wouldn't you still be reflex (dex) based for saves? or does it not get a save? or does it not have the ability to react quickly so you make the save at +0 (+handling)??? I'm still kinda ify on when a vehilce is a Wisdom piloting vehilce and when it is a Dex vehicle.

"Base Hardness" -- isn't this just "Hardness" as defined in PHB, p. 136? Shouldn't it be described just the same way? Hardness has been released in the SRD, so we can use it as is.

Vehicle Hardness -- do we really need to worry about this? Hardness is a standard quality of objects and any component that affects it ought to say so clearly.

I basicaly thought vehicles should get more and more hardness the larger they were, with the option of adding more as a component. At one point I only had construct vehilces (and another group called object vehilces) getting hardness while living and plant vehicles got fast healing.

Vehicle Size Chart --
"Lift" is undefined.

Oops. Lift multipliers based on vehicle size is something I've mentioned before in ohter chapters I think. Basicaly, according to the DMG, the chart for how much a creature can lift is for Medium creatures. A larger creature can crry twice as much, and so on. I've taken that basic concept and extended it out along our vessel sizes. A Fine Vehilce with a STR score of 20 can carry as much as a Medium sized person with a score of 20, but a Colossal Vessel with a score of 20 can lift x256 times as much. Thats a basic extention of the current d20 rules for how much a STR score can lift. For vehilces, the STR score effects cargo weight in this way. Carrying a dragon's hoard in a couple of cargo bays might FIT inside the vehilce, but it will way a LOT. Cargo bays only provide space for goods, but not a system for pulling them around.

Vehicle Power -- Not complicated, and never fluctuates. Actual vehicle power is constant. The vehicle crew can, presumably, switch power-consuming components off and on -- make it a move-equivalent action to switch a component off or on, so as a full action you can "unhook" one component and "hook up" another. But there's no need to keep track of "Free Power" -- either a component is on or off, and if it's on, it drains power.

That's a cleaner version then mine... although it might require that some of the systems with variable power amounts (sheilds) need tweaking. My system was kinda like a wand that restocked itself with charges each round.... but your system is easier and cleaner to use.

Design Foci: These are like racial or cultural or ancestor feats, right?

Kinda. I figured a design focus was something the vehilce's builder might have as a feat... but it direclty affects the vehicle's stats even after its made and been sold to some new owner. Only one focus, even if the maker has more then one, can be applied to a vehilce.

Speed -- Why can't a vehicle have a speed of 0? Surely a balloon has a speed of 0. I think Speed calculation needs to be rethought. Maybe we shouldn't be using a doubling mechanism -- is there a logic behind that or is it just simpler than making up numbers?

Glide Speed Points -- Components that add speed points surely are things like engines and so on. Why would they add glide speed points? Likewise, wings shouldn't add speed points, but they could certainly add glide speed point. The reference here is misleading because it indicates that only components with Speed points add Glide Speed points.

Maneuverability Points -- what happens if I build a vehicle with no Maneuverability points? Or not enough to make Clumsy? Does it crash if I try to fly it? Or what? We need to cover this.

Lift -- first you say if a vehicle's lift score is lower than its hit dice it cannot fly in gravity. Then you give us a formula for determining a vehicle's minimum speed that appears to depend on the lift score being lower than the vehicle's hit dice. It's unclear. And I think the calculation you're using has some problems. First off, you're assuming lift is generated by speed in all cases. What about lift generated by lighter-than-air effects? Such an effect will ONLY work if the lift is greater than the vehicle's hit dice. Maybe there need to be different categories of lift. Secondly, I think that minimum speed should be independent of a vehicle's Speed rating. That is, for value x of lift at value y of size, minimum speed will always be some function of x and y, regardless of the vehicle's available speed.

In fact, the calculation ought to work such that the lift/size function determines the minimum speed the vehicle must have in order to achieve lift-off. That way, you can design a vehicle that compensates for low lift by having a high Speed.

Is there any way to bring the Feat mechanic in here? Components are like Feats, really, I suppose.

You see, that make obvious sense right now, but when I was writing this all up from scratch, I didn't know what I was doing and was kinda making stuff up as I went along. I did a doubling system for speed points becaue I didn't know what else to do. I wrote up all the systems with speed scores to apply glide speed at a fraction of their speed scores, and so on.
Components are something closer to character levels, or special qualities, then feats.
A manuverability of 0 would mean the vehilce is unconrtolable. trying to fly it would be like trying to ride a bucking bronco... or a missile. It would probably swivel about and go everywhich direction. If it was built to fly stable but had not controls, trying to fly it would basicaly mean controlling speed, but not turning at all (even as a stunt) and not controlling altitiude. hmmm... we might need rules for this. A hot air ballon would have both a speed and manuveriblity of 0.... but it would still fly.

basicaly you've helped me out here by looking at all the stupid things I did because I didn't know where to start... let me run some ideas past you now that you got me thinking "outside the box" I arbitrarily put myself in.

 

[BlackJaw]

NEW ideas, and what to keep....

As far as I can tell, these are the ideas that worked, more or less:

1) A vehicle is limited in how much equipment, like guns, engines, power sources, living space, and cargo space, it can hold. This limit is equal to its number of Hit Dice. Some equipment is bigger then others and take up more space. The size of a component is measured in component slots. A vehicle’s number Hit dice is its maximum number of component slots. Some components use 0 component slots, but still cost money and apply to the vehicle’s stats when compiled.
2) Components generally provide either a positive or negative number to functions like power, speed, maneuvering, armor class, etc. These numbers are latter added up by type and compared against a chart (based on vehicle size) to give maneuverability ratings, speed scores, etc. This chart method means that a small but powerful engine might make for a fast fighter-craft but putting the same engine in a large cargo ship isn’t going to give the same amount of speed.
4) Some components also directly add other features. Having a Brig component gives space to securely lock up people or creatures, and the listing for that component also holds information on breaking out of the brig. It works some what like a special quality like a creature might posses.
5) Weapons and defensive system also have a few special stats because they, like the sword or shield or wand in an adventure’s hand, can be targeted directly. They have a separate number of hit points (10 + 10 per component slot in size) and use a separate size modifier for AC (but otherwise uses the vehicle’s AC)
6) It is not possible to attack primary ship systems directly. You don’t get to call shots on engines, life support, or power systems anymore then you get to call shots on heads, hearts, or kidneys in normal D&D. It is assumed that an attack is intended to do damage, and anything doing Hit Point damage is hitting vitals to some degree. Similarly, criticals and sneak attacks do more damage because they are hitting said vitals better. Basic D&D/D20 concept.

NEW/MODIFIED IDEAS:
Designing a vehicle should work along these steps:
1)Pick a Type and Size. This gives BASIC creature like stats for it. Hit Dice ranges, type of hit dice, base “natural,” etc. This is considered the Hull of the vehicle. These base stats have no speed, maneuvering, glide, min speed, etc to them. It also posses no attacks or other real powers. What base Attributes (str, dex, con, etc) provided at this level are determined by type. Constructs have few, but organic ships might have more, including Con or even Int and Wis.
1a) Types: Aberration… any type of living (organic) ship including animal like ones through giant bloated spidery Drow ships. Plant… all those Elf ships made from living plants grown into the shape of a vehicle or magically shaped into it. Construct… A ship made form artificial parts and materials then animated (through magic, machines, or psionics) so that if moves. A normal airplane for example. Types give the basic immunites associated with them, so constructs are immune to poison and negative energy, while living ships can be “fixed” with Cure spells but can also gain negative levels or be poisoned.
1b) all the above posses the “vehicle” type. This type has certain properties as of yet, undefined. One note might be that they can be piloted… thus a living ship can still be piloted because it is made/grown to do so even though normal mounted rules don’t work that way. (how many griffons have cockpits?) Another feature of the vehicle type is no immunity to critical hits, sneak attacks, favored enemy damage bonuses, or related powers… although death from massive damage is still ruled out along with some similarly inappropriate attacks.
1c) Aberration and Undead vehicle might be able to fly themselves (pilot ranks with their own Dex scores) but because they have the Vehicle type, they can be over ridden by an actual pilot (and the ship’s own minor intelligence becomes an automatic co-pilot). This kind of vehicle with intelligence might also be a good case of when Wis based piloting is used instead of Dex based piloting?? Obviously construct and plant types don’t have these built in piloting systems… although that could be a component that can be added (IE: golem ships). The “vehicle intelligence” and stats are built into the base hull stats.
1d) Construct ships also get to choose a hull material. This provides the vehicle with a hardness score. To the few material types I’ve already started using I should also add Bone. This would be for vehicles made from skeletons of large animals/etc but not actually animated with necromancy.
1e) plant ships and organic ships get to heal like living creatures (maybe fast healing as a feature for one or the other)
2) Components are purchased and added to a vehicle (with a cap at the vehicle’s # of HD). These components provide the speed and manuverabilty, and the glide speed and maneuvering. The Min speed, however, comes from the ship’s size from step 1(altered by lift). Thus when you go to chose components, like engine(s), you know where you stand from the start as far as how much you need to buy for the vehicle to work at all.
3) The components are all compiled into the vehicle’s final stats (and the vehicle’s maker may apply a special vehicle focus feat at this time) Most components simply go into the standard stats.
3a) Added to the normal stats of a monster/creature are the following: Glide speed + maneuverability, Minimum speed, crew, power, supported, vehicle wepaons (see 3c) and handling modifier. (did I leave anything out?)
3b) Some components do more then provide basic stats. These features of a component should be marked as “special qualities” and be put in that proper section. (and listed with those functions as special qualities in the component description.)
3c) similar in nature to a creature’s “special attacks” section of stats is a new area called “vehicle weapons” this lists all of the vehicles weapons, their attack modifier (made from the weapon’s accuracy, the vehicle’s size modifier, etc) their range increment, damage + type, etc. Also in the description of the creature/vehilce the full stats for each weapon, including operators, reload time, individual armor class (made from the vehicle’s armor class but using the weapons own size instead of the entire vehicle’s size) etc are listed… much like how the description of a dragon has a paragraph on its breath weapon.
NOTE: as an added bonus, this system becomes closer to making a way to give a vehilce an ECL. (the vehilce increases the difficulty of fighting its crew... but the base challenge still has to do with the skills/powers of the crew)

Things that need discussion:
1)Vessels with a speed of 0... what are the rules if they are even considered vessels (let alone vehicles)
2) vessels with maneuverability of less then clumsy (do we consider them vessels, and if so, do we want to make up rules for a NEW maneuverability ratting?)
3) what are the other features of the [vehicle] type besides allowing direct piloting and allowing critical/etc. can we just slap that type on just about anything and make it a pilot-able vehicle? (I both like and dislike that idea... if adding the vehicle type gives you the power to pilot something instead of just “riding it” it becomes a much nicer system for some DMs already familiar with monster making. Keep in mind that we already have rules for determining the min. speed for monsters, and can fairly easily say that most monsters have a glide speed the same as their standard speed… but what about handling modifiers for things that we otherwise would have said piloted themselves with a +8 bonus?)

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: NEW ideas, and what to keep....

As far as I can tell, these are the ideas that worked, more or less:

A vehicle’s number Hit dice is its maximum number of component slots.

Yes. Great, simple system.

Components generally provide either a positive or negative number to functions like power, speed, maneuvering, armor class, etc.

Agreed. Another good idea.

Some components also directly add other features. It works some what like a special quality like a creature might posses.

Exactly like creatures, is my thinking. The more like creatures, the better.

Weapons and defensive system also have a few special stats because they, like the sword or shield or wand in an adventure’s hand, can be targeted directly.

Let's say that SOME components, whether they be defensive or offensive or other, may have special stats because they can be targetted. Basically we are talking about any component that can be targetted the way an object in a character's hand can be targetted. I would allow as DM a Sunder attack made against a steel pipe in a character's hand, regardless of whether or not it was a weapon.

It is not possible to attack primary ship systems directly.

This is a corollary to the point above. Only components that have hit points can be attacked directly. So for example if a component (Life Support, for example) does not have a hit point value, it is not a legitimate target for an attack.

NEW/MODIFIED IDEAS:
1)Pick a Type and Size.
1a) Types:

Types are exactly the same as the types in the Monster Manual.

1b) all the above posses the “vehicle” type.

Properly speaking, "Vehicle" is a type modifier. It adds specific properties to the actual type. With the combination of Type and Type Modifier, the vessel is clearly defined as such, and its immunities, vulnerabilities and other properties are all derived from those two descriptors.

1c) Aberration and Undead vehicle might be able to fly themselves (pilot ranks with their own Dex scores) but because they have the Vehicle type, they can be over ridden by an actual pilot

A vessel is either a creature or a vehicle. It can never simultaneously behave as both, though the vehicle type modifier does not preclude the possibility that a vessel may be a creature. But I believe that if a vessel is a creature, it always has creature properties (it can take a run action, it is always under control unless the creature is incapacitated, etc). In order for a creature to become a vehicle, the creature must be unable to control its own movement. At which point it is a vehicle and not a creature. In any event, this has nothing to do with the Type of the vessel.

This kind of vehicle with intelligence might also be a good case of when Wis based piloting is used instead of Dex based piloting??

No. If the vessel is a creature then the rider may use the Aid Another action to assist the creature's Piloting checks. This has nothing to do with which attribute the creature uses for those Piloting checks.

Obviously construct and plant types don’t have these built in piloting systems

I don't consider that obvious at all.

The “vehicle intelligence” and stats are built into the base hull stats.

I disagree. Some of the actual ability scores of a vessel are determined the same way they are for any creature -- pretty much by DM fiat. Only Strength and Dexterity, I would argue, are not available to a Vehicle -- Strength is determined by the vehicle's components and size, and Dexterity -- well, maybe a Vehicle has no Dexterity score, the same way an Undead has no Constitution score. A vehicle's nimbleness is restricted by the ability of the pilot at its controls. Reflex Saves become a problem to be solved, in that case.

1d)To the few material types I’ve already started using I should also add Bone.

I assume Bone has a hardness of 0. Otherwise, wouldn't skeletons have a hardness?

1e) plant ships and organic ships get to heal like living creatures

Agreed.

The Min speed, however, comes from the ship’s size from step 1(altered by lift).

I think we need two kinds of lift. I can't see any other way to do it. We need Pure Lift and Speed Lift. Pure Lift works directly against the vessel's size (Hit Dice). Every point of Pure Lift counteracts one Hit Die. If the Pure Lift equals the Hit Dice, the vessel can fly. Speed Lift works with Hit Dice to determine Minimum Speed. Take the Hit Dice left over after applying Pure Lift (if any) and apply some function to them and the number of points of Speed Lift to determine the vessel's Minimum Speed. If your engine component provides at least that much Speed your vessel can take off.

This system means that a lighter-than-air craft has no Minimum Speed (as it should) and heavier-than-air craft always have a Minimum Speed based on a relationship between their size and the amount of lift their components can generate. So you can choose, say, extra-large wings to generate tons of lift and only need a wee little engine. Or if you have stubby wings you need a great big rocket in the back of your Undead Bone Ship.

Added to the normal stats of a monster/creature are the following: Glide speed + maneuverability, Minimum speed, crew, power, supported, vehicle wepaons (see 3c) and handling modifier. (did I leave anything out?)

What's "supported"?

Some components do more then provide basic stats. These features of a component should be marked as “special qualities” and be put in that proper section.

Sure, that's simple.

3c) similar in nature to a creature’s “special attacks” section of stats is a new area called “vehicle weapons”

Makes sense to me.

NOTE: as an added bonus, this system becomes closer to making a way to give a vehilce an ECL.

Good point.

Things that need discussion:
1)Vessels with a speed of 0... what are the rules if they are even considered vessels (let alone vehicles)

Right. We might want to say that a vessel requires a Speed of greater than zero. But we might not. Is there a real difference between, say, a sailing ship and a balloon? Not much, thinks I. So if we're thinking of covering sailships we ought to cover balloons, too.

2) vessels with maneuverability of less then clumsy (do we consider them vessels, and if so, do we want to make up rules for a NEW maneuverability ratting?)

I think that Clumsy should be the default value for Maneuverability. There's a minimum number of Man. Points that must be applied to any vessel in order to reach Poor, but if you haven't got that many you're Clumsy. Good enough.

3) what are the other features of the [vehicle] type besides allowing direct piloting and allowing critical/etc. can we just slap that type on just about anything and make it a pilot-able vehicle?

Sure. I mean, if it hasn't got power, engines and control systems it's pretty useless, but yeah, I like the idea.

Keep in mind that we already have rules for determining the min. speed for monsters, and can fairly easily say that most monsters have a glide speed the same as their standard speed… but what about handling modifiers for things that we otherwise would have said piloted themselves with a +8 bonus?)

Huh? Are you saying what if we turn a griffin (with a racial +8 bonus to Piloting checks) into a vehicle? That +8 is gone, baby. It's in the griffin's head and nervous system. If we decide that a griffin design deserves a handling modifier then that's a function of that vehicle's design. But creatures don't get handling modifiers so that's not a problem.

 

[BlackJaw]

Redux...

"big-old-cargo-ship-name-here" -- The vehicle's name
Large Vessel - Construct (Vehicle) -- The vehicle's type with "vehicle" subtype
Hit Dice: 100D10 (505hp) -- The vehicle's number of hitdice and hit points
Initiative: as Pilot -- They don't react, the pilot does.
Speed: 150' (poor) -- Determined by componets
Glide: 90' (clumsy) -- Determined by componets
Min. Speed: 90' -- Determined by componets
Handling Modifier: -5 -- Determined by componets... including size
Crew: 8 -- Determined by componets, if not fully staffed a penatly to piloting checks is applied equal to number missing
Supported: 20 -- The ship can feed/air/water this many people for 100 days
Power: 20 Electric -- total power & type
AC: Pilot's Dex. Mod. +4 -- Armor class (-16 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor) applied to the Dex modifier of hte pilot. Some feats (dodge) and bonuses (insight) apply too.
Face/Reach: 60' by 128’/30' -- within size category/face by size
Special Attacks: Ram 64d10 -- This is a not a normal attack (IE slam) but it is an attack the vehicle, not a vehilce weapon, makes.
Vessel Weapons: 4 Blaster Cannons (+3, 90', 2 front/1right/1left, 3d10 lightning) -- Spicifics listed bellow
Special Qualities: Hardness 10, Cargo bay 500'/179,200 lbs, Quarters -- spicifics listed bellow
Saves: Fort +30, Ref as pilot -5, Will +30 -- By Hit Dice and type (a 100 HD construct has "poor" saves on all, but as a vehilce the reflex save is the pilot's minus the handling modifier
Abilities: STR 40, DEX as Pilot, CON -, INT -, WIS as Pilot, CHA as Pilot -- pilot is the Dex score, Str is by engines/size, as construct it has no INT or CON, but what about WIS & CHA?
Skills: none
Climate/Terrain: Space & Atmosphere
Organization: Solitary or caravan (4 +1d6)
Encoutner Level Modifier: +10 --instead of a CR ratting becasue vehiles are pointless without crews. take the CR of the pilot if just one man, or take the EL of the crew and add this modifier... remember to do the same for the PCs' ship and level for determing a fair fight
Treasure: none/cargo -- You'd list the value or contents of the cargo bay, if any
Alignment: none (object)/as pilot -- do we use the pilot or do we use none?
Advancement: special -- you wouldn't use this for a vehilce because advancement isn't just adding HD.

Description of ship

Combat
Construct Traits
Vehilce Traits: (including allowing criticals)
Hardness: 10 (made of iron/metal)
Ram: when a pilot succseffuly rams a target, it does 64d10 damage.
Blaster Cannon: A big cannon that fires charged engery orbs. The weapon uses 3 power, has an instanious recharge rate, can be operated remotly, has 30 Hp, an armor class of +18 (-2 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor). Two cannons face forward, with another facing to the right, and fourth to the left.
Cargo bays: the vehilce has a massive cargo bay that can hold 500 cubic feat of materail. The engines can carry cargo as a character with a STR 40 but increased by x32 for size (179,200 lbs as heavy load).
Quarters: 2 nice quarters, and 6 standard bunks.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Redux...

This is GREAT! Very cool. This is really starting to look like it's going to work. Nice job.

I, of course, have some comments.

Initiative: as Pilot -- They don't react, the pilot does.

Yes. Correct.

AC: Pilot's Dex. Mod. +4 -- Armor class (-16 size, +10 natural, + 10 armor) applied to the Dex modifier of hte pilot. Some feats (dodge) and bonuses (insight) apply too.

Hm. Are we abandoning the notion that Piloting can use Wisdom instead of Dexterity for some vessels? I would argue that a sailing ship's AC can be affected by the actions of its captain, so if the captain's skill involves Wisdom then perhaps a vessel AC may be modified by either Wisdom or Dexterity?

Special Attacks: Ram 64d10 -- This is a not a normal attack (IE slam) but it is an attack the vehicle, not a vehilce weapon, makes.

Right, so one quality that the "vehicle" type modifier possesses is the ram attack -- all vehicles get this attack. For a creature a ram attack is just a normal attack.

Saves: Ref as pilot -5 ... as a vehilce the reflex save is the pilot's minus the handling modifier

Great solution. Brilliant.

Abilities: STR 40, DEX as Pilot, CON -, INT -, WIS as Pilot, CHA as Pilot -- pilot is the Dex score, Str is by engines/size, as construct it has no INT or CON, but what about WIS & CHA?

A Construct may have an Intelligence score. It also has Wisdom and Charisma scores (though those may be 0, of course). A 747, for example, has Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma of 0. However, Zaphod Beeblebrox' Heart Of Gold definitely has stats for all three. If I remember correctly. A vehicle can have a personality without being a creature (for our purposes), you see.

Alignment: none (object)/as pilot -- do we use the pilot or do we use none?

A vessel might have an alignment of its on, or it might have no alignment at all. Magic items, for example, can have an alignment or not. But no, a vehicle does not take on the alignment of its pilot.

Vehilce Traits: (including allowing criticals)

Okay, so another trait of vehicles is that they are vulnerable to critical hits. Even if they are undead or constructs or plants. So we have that, the ram attack, the ability to acquire components, the new size categories, the Minimum Speed and Glide Speed ratings, the Handling Modifier, the Crew, Supported and Power ratings, the new AC, Initiative and Reflex Saves, the new Dexterity and the new CR determination system.

Does that define a vehicle?

 

[BlackJaw]

Note that I left out about a half-dozen or more diffrent "specail qualities" that a vehilce probably has, including a Bridge with a number of bridge stations, etc.

Ideas:
Saves/Ability scores: A vehilce's Dexterity score is the Pilot's score. A vehilce' reflex save is the pilot's save minus the handling modifier (because it involves moving). I'm currently toying with the idea that the vehilce's Wis and Cha scores are the pilot's score... atlhought those two featers (common even on oozes, constructs, and undead) might be by type. Thus the Will save would be by type/size (and in 99% of cases a vehicle is immune anyway)

Encumbrance. Vehilce should have encumbrance for cargo... and it should probably be listed with cargo bays. The vehicle's STR score can be used and under d20 system, creature size gives a multiplier to this STR listing in the PHB. Problem: when determining the cargo listing do we use light, medium, or heavey. If we allow loads over light load, doe we institute some sort of vehilce slowing and piloting penalty like those with encumbrance? what about the Dex cap... technicaly if we use striat D&D rules here, we'd have to cap the pilot's Dex score and give a skill check penalty (which would include piloting) resulting in large penalties for loading a ship above light load. I kinda like that idea even still. I'd say we only count cargo goods for this ratting and ignore crew. Should a vehilce load up on people (above crew score) then we count their weight as cargo. Remember crew size counts too... 2 small = 1 medium. 2 medium = 1 large... etc. Keeping a dragon in the cargo bay can be a problem. ( I didn't do this correctly in the block above)

Types: mostly vehicle will be of the Construct, Undead, and Plant types... You can also fairly easily make a living organic ship with no inteligence... but if we wanted a living Inteligent ship (some SciFi works that way... ever seen Farscape, Bab5, or a few of the StarTrek shows?) do we have that ship always pilot itself and call it mounted rules (thus no vehilce type, but maybe still use some of the components and special vehilce weapons/etc) or do we have inteligent ships hard ruled that they can't pilot themselves... or what? It seems like a bad idea to tell people that it just can't be done. I kinda like the idea that you can fly an inteligent ship if it lets you... if you grew it so it had controls (instead of just sitting on it and yank a cord to give it orders on where you want to go like in mounted combat) but the ship can always re-assert itself, generlay acts as a copilot, etc... The alternative to this concept is that we require that the Vehicle sub-type removes Int scores/can't be applied to something with an Int score... and again we have the rules simply telling people "No." Couldn't we just look at it as "you can't pilot it unless it has the Vehilce subtype, and if it has the vehilce sub type and an inteligence score then it is a vehilce that can pilot itself." We could even setup a component that gives vehilces Int scores (kinda like an advanced autopilot)??? or do you have another idea how to work this. Just write it out as "if it has an Inteligence score, then you can not pilot it, only ride it?"

Speed, Lift, Glide, manuvering, the works: So your idea for determing these improtant features is this(?):
1) a ship's minum speed is determined by comparing it's Primary Lift againts it's Size. If it's Primary Lift is equal to or greater then its HD, then it's min. speed is 0 (hover).
2)If the ship's Primary Lift is not equal to or greater then its HD, then we subtract the Primary Lift & Speed Lift from the HD, take the resulting number and use that to determine the Min. Speed (but the speed must 30' or more). The vehilce's engines must meet that speed or better to fly in gravity.
3) speed is determiend by adding up all Speed points & glide speed points and comparing it to a table.
4) Glide speed is determiend by adding up all glide speed points (which come from components that do not need power) and comparing that to the same table above.
5) Manuveribilty and Glide man. work in the same way. The table lists clumsy as the worst option for a vehicle/vessel.


How do we do Vehilce STR scores? base amount (by size and/or type) + system based off the vehicle's Speed & lift? Or is it base by size (which assumes the engines/components are that strong to get it airborne) and maybe special components (option in my Engine component desing) increase the Str score spicificaly thus letting vehicles be designed to carry lots of cargo not nessisarily go faster or hover? some other idea?

 

[BlackJaw]

You can pilot some vehilces with the Wisdom skill... but that's just for the Pilot skill. you don't get to use your Wisdom everywhere else. Sure you can get the ship to do stunts, land, take off, etc... but when it come time to dodge fire, react quickly, etc... it still your Dex score... at least that's what I've been working off. NOW we could let them use their WIS modifier everywhere you'd normaly use your DEX modifier, but that lets them use it for Reflex saves, and armor class (note that a Monk pilot would be getting their Dex and Wis bonus to their vehilce AC anyway) etc.

For the record, using the Wisdom score for piloting was not my idea, and I've yet to have it explained to me as to WHEN you get to do that. I know its supposed to be built into the vehilce, but what is the concept here? that it is a smart vehilce (computer controlled) so you plot courses instead of turning a stick? Is this an option we allow on all vehilces (even fighters?) or is it limited to larger vehilces? When building a vehilce do we want it to be a choice you make, or do you need to buy special components to let you pull it off?

Personaly the only 3 times I had it in my mind that it would make sense is 1: the vehilce has advanced automated controls, and you plot courses. 2: you literaly plug your brain into the computer (animie style) and pilot it by thought instead of by stick (also works for psionic controls!) 3: the vehilce is alive and can pilot itself... your jsut kinda half-piloting it. (this is still being worked out as to it's possibilities or not possible)

 

[BlackJaw]

Vehilce that can pilot themselves is now going to be its own topic.