Re: NEW ideas, and what to keep....
BlackJaw said:
As far as I can tell, these are the ideas that worked, more or less:
A vehicle’s number Hit dice is its maximum number of component slots.
Yes. Great, simple system.
Components generally provide either a positive or negative number to functions like power, speed, maneuvering, armor class, etc.
Agreed. Another good idea.
Some components also directly add other features. It works some what like a special quality like a creature might posses.
Exactly like creatures, is my thinking. The more like creatures, the better.
Weapons and defensive system also have a few special stats because they, like the sword or shield or wand in an adventure’s hand, can be targeted directly.
Let's say that SOME components, whether they be defensive or offensive or other, may have special stats because they can be targetted. Basically we are talking about any component that can be targetted the way an object in a character's hand can be targetted. I would allow as DM a Sunder attack made against a steel pipe in a character's hand, regardless of whether or not it was a weapon.
It is not possible to attack primary ship systems directly.
This is a corollary to the point above. Only components that have hit points can be attacked directly. So for example if a component (Life Support, for example) does not have a hit point value, it is not a legitimate target for an attack.
NEW/MODIFIED IDEAS:
1)Pick a Type and Size.
1a) Types:
Types are exactly the same as the types in the Monster Manual.
1b) all the above posses the “vehicle” type.
Properly speaking, "Vehicle" is a
type modifier. It adds specific properties to the actual type. With the combination of Type and Type Modifier, the vessel is clearly defined as such, and its immunities, vulnerabilities and other properties are all derived from those two descriptors.
1c) Aberration and Undead vehicle might be able to fly themselves (pilot ranks with their own Dex scores) but because they have the Vehicle type, they can be over ridden by an actual pilot
A vessel is
either a creature or a vehicle. It can never simultaneously behave as both, though the vehicle type modifier does not preclude the possibility that a vessel may be a creature. But I believe that if a vessel is a creature, it always has creature properties (it can take a run action, it is always under control unless the creature is incapacitated, etc). In order for a creature to become a vehicle, the creature must be unable to control its own movement. At which point it is a vehicle and not a creature. In any event, this has nothing to do with the Type of the vessel.
This kind of vehicle with intelligence might also be a good case of when Wis based piloting is used instead of Dex based piloting??
No. If the vessel is a creature then the rider may use the Aid Another action to assist the creature's Piloting checks. This has nothing to do with which attribute the creature uses for those Piloting checks.
Obviously construct and plant types don’t have these built in piloting systems
I don't consider that obvious at all.
The “vehicle intelligence” and stats are built into the base hull stats.
I disagree. Some of the actual ability scores of a vessel are determined the same way they are for any creature -- pretty much by DM fiat. Only Strength and Dexterity, I would argue, are not available to a Vehicle -- Strength is determined by the vehicle's components and size, and Dexterity -- well, maybe a Vehicle has no Dexterity score, the same way an Undead has no Constitution score. A vehicle's nimbleness is restricted by the ability of the pilot at its controls. Reflex Saves become a problem to be solved, in that case.
1d)To the few material types I’ve already started using I should also add Bone.
I assume Bone has a hardness of 0. Otherwise, wouldn't skeletons have a hardness?
1e) plant ships and organic ships get to heal like living creatures
Agreed.
The Min speed, however, comes from the ship’s size from step 1(altered by lift).
I think we need two kinds of lift. I can't see any other way to do it. We need Pure Lift and Speed Lift. Pure Lift works directly against the vessel's size (Hit Dice). Every point of Pure Lift counteracts one Hit Die. If the Pure Lift equals the Hit Dice, the vessel can fly. Speed Lift works with Hit Dice to determine Minimum Speed. Take the Hit Dice left over after applying Pure Lift (if any) and apply some function to them and the number of points of Speed Lift to determine the vessel's Minimum Speed. If your engine component provides at least that much Speed your vessel can take off.
This system means that a lighter-than-air craft has no Minimum Speed (as it should) and heavier-than-air craft always have a Minimum Speed based on a relationship between their size and the amount of lift their components can generate. So you can choose, say, extra-large wings to generate tons of lift and only need a wee little engine. Or if you have stubby wings you need a great big rocket in the back of your Undead Bone Ship.
Added to the normal stats of a monster/creature are the following: Glide speed + maneuverability, Minimum speed, crew, power, supported, vehicle wepaons (see 3c) and handling modifier. (did I leave anything out?)
What's "supported"?
Some components do more then provide basic stats. These features of a component should be marked as “special qualities” and be put in that proper section.
Sure, that's simple.
3c) similar in nature to a creature’s “special attacks” section of stats is a new area called “vehicle weapons”
Makes sense to me.
NOTE: as an added bonus, this system becomes closer to making a way to give a vehilce an ECL.
Good point.
Things that need discussion:
1)Vessels with a speed of 0... what are the rules if they are even considered vessels (let alone vehicles)
Right. We might want to say that a vessel requires a Speed of greater than zero. But we might not. Is there a real difference between, say, a sailing ship and a balloon? Not much, thinks I. So if we're thinking of covering sailships we ought to cover balloons, too.
2) vessels with maneuverability of less then clumsy (do we consider them vessels, and if so, do we want to make up rules for a NEW maneuverability ratting?)
I think that Clumsy should be the default value for Maneuverability. There's a minimum number of Man. Points that must be applied to any vessel in order to reach Poor, but if you haven't got that many you're Clumsy. Good enough.
3) what are the other features of the [vehicle] type besides allowing direct piloting and allowing critical/etc. can we just slap that type on just about anything and make it a pilot-able vehicle?
Sure. I mean, if it hasn't got power, engines and control systems it's pretty useless, but yeah, I like the idea.
Keep in mind that we already have rules for determining the min. speed for monsters, and can fairly easily say that most monsters have a glide speed the same as their standard speed… but what about handling modifiers for things that we otherwise would have said piloted themselves with a +8 bonus?)
Huh? Are you saying what if we turn a griffin (with a racial +8 bonus to Piloting checks) into a vehicle? That +8 is gone, baby. It's in the griffin's head and nervous system. If we decide that a griffin design deserves a handling modifier then that's a function of that vehicle's design. But creatures don't get handling modifiers so that's not a problem.