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Chapter 4: Vehilce Creation (+ part list!)
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<blockquote data-quote="BlackJaw" data-source="post: 451214" data-attributes="member: 888"><p>You posted a reply just before I finished reading and writing my own, so here's another to your new post:</p><p></p><p></p><p>We arn't saying that they are alive. Most vehicles are constructs. Constructs are not alive... they are objects. Most D&D games cover animated (not just magic, but machines like robots and vehicles) objects as constructs. Incase Barsoomcore's response above didn't tell you: He and I are currently in a debate about how to handle Living Vehicles... you just walked into the middle of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the record I have all the dragon star books including the new "imperal equipment gd" and the Dungeon Mags that cover vehicles, that cover Spell Jammer, etc. Those are some uggly rules and are part of the reason why I'm working on this project at all. The Dungeon Mag articles are both closed content and are not avalible for anyone writing anything to use. More then that, they are uggly rule sets. The vehicle rules from dungeon (they had an article on JUST vehicles in general) requires a DM to keep track of the hit points for every 5' square/cube of a vehicle... that's nasty in game play... especialy when it goes into how one 5' square effects the squares near it. The Spelljammer article is fine if your running a game of large ships that float in space because they are just magic (period) and you never want anything resembling a dog fight. Essentialy its rules for how vehilces interact in space, but very little on vehicle VS vehilce combat... But that's what you expect from a short dungeon article.</p><p></p><p>Have you read any of the vehicle rules from (say Dragon Star or Starwars d20?) These are not great flight rules. They are clunky, and tacked on. The focus of those products was the setting, not the flight rules. Dragon star uses a system of keeping a distance measurement between one ship and all the other ships... no grids. its all done with skill checks and range bubbles etc. You want to build a ship? you take one of their stock crafts and add guns/etc to it until you run out of money. How does that effect CR? If I pit my players in space fighters againts Orcs in space fighters what is the CR? is it my players VS orcs regardless of the equipment difrences? </p><p></p><p>The Starwars system has been changed 3 times (or more) from when it was released. many people who play it have told me they hate the movement point system because it requires so many extra calculations IN COMBAT. with larger groups it becomes ugly. AND again your vehicle design is a stock ship + as much extra stuff you can afford.</p><p></p><p>Stock ships are fine in one setting, but if you want to make your own flight setting... well good luck trying to determine the stats for everything on your own with no guides. Also, with no limits as to space inside a vehicle, you start getting "bags of holding" vehicle desings, where massive engines, fuel tanks, and absurb amounts of weapons and systems all seem to fit on a single vehicle because enogh money was thrown at it. I'm working on a system for tweaking vessels more then that. A hull only holds so much stuff (engines, fuel/power cores, weapons, people, etc) and its a bit of a balencing act... but you can lean the balence toward spicific goals... speed, endurance, manuvering, handling, big guns, lots of smaller guns, cargo, or even make a flying "home base" location with brigs, churches, labs, etc. </p><p></p><p>If your even checking in on the project or working on rules of your own, I'm betting you arn't happy with the rules that are out there either. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So instead of letting the pilot (who determines the movements of the vehicle) roll for a initative your going to give each vehicle a flat init modifer to represent the little guy in a treadmill, the bosun, and anyone else that keeps the vehilce working? Ok, how do you determine that modifier? average up all the init modifiers of everyone onboard? Take into acount who has what job? (wouldn't the little guy on the tread mill who can't see anyting just keep running all the time regardless of when the vehilce enters combat?) I'd argue that controlling the actions of a vehicle is an action that the pilot takes, and that determining when a pilot (or any NPC/PC) gets to take any actions is done through a Init check for that NPC/PC. THUS a vehicle has no Init score/modifer/etc. A pilot gets to pilot on his turn, and the abilities of he and his crew to move, manuver, and use their vehicle is determiend by that vehilce, but the WHEN (durring the theoretical 6 seconds where everything happens at the same time anyway) is done through normal Init meahtods.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Does a zombie, skeleton, stone golem, etc have Inteligence, stamina or "sentinent" characteristics? Not really, but that's why "creatures" can have stats of "-" for things like Int, Con, etc. A Stone Golem "structual strength," "durability," and "it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness." It also uses creature stats. Also, does your Biplane have AI or scanners? not really, but would that require it to use completly new stat formating, terms, and rules?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BlackJaw, post: 451214, member: 888"] You posted a reply just before I finished reading and writing my own, so here's another to your new post: We arn't saying that they are alive. Most vehicles are constructs. Constructs are not alive... they are objects. Most D&D games cover animated (not just magic, but machines like robots and vehicles) objects as constructs. Incase Barsoomcore's response above didn't tell you: He and I are currently in a debate about how to handle Living Vehicles... you just walked into the middle of it. For the record I have all the dragon star books including the new "imperal equipment gd" and the Dungeon Mags that cover vehicles, that cover Spell Jammer, etc. Those are some uggly rules and are part of the reason why I'm working on this project at all. The Dungeon Mag articles are both closed content and are not avalible for anyone writing anything to use. More then that, they are uggly rule sets. The vehicle rules from dungeon (they had an article on JUST vehicles in general) requires a DM to keep track of the hit points for every 5' square/cube of a vehicle... that's nasty in game play... especialy when it goes into how one 5' square effects the squares near it. The Spelljammer article is fine if your running a game of large ships that float in space because they are just magic (period) and you never want anything resembling a dog fight. Essentialy its rules for how vehilces interact in space, but very little on vehicle VS vehilce combat... But that's what you expect from a short dungeon article. Have you read any of the vehicle rules from (say Dragon Star or Starwars d20?) These are not great flight rules. They are clunky, and tacked on. The focus of those products was the setting, not the flight rules. Dragon star uses a system of keeping a distance measurement between one ship and all the other ships... no grids. its all done with skill checks and range bubbles etc. You want to build a ship? you take one of their stock crafts and add guns/etc to it until you run out of money. How does that effect CR? If I pit my players in space fighters againts Orcs in space fighters what is the CR? is it my players VS orcs regardless of the equipment difrences? The Starwars system has been changed 3 times (or more) from when it was released. many people who play it have told me they hate the movement point system because it requires so many extra calculations IN COMBAT. with larger groups it becomes ugly. AND again your vehicle design is a stock ship + as much extra stuff you can afford. Stock ships are fine in one setting, but if you want to make your own flight setting... well good luck trying to determine the stats for everything on your own with no guides. Also, with no limits as to space inside a vehicle, you start getting "bags of holding" vehicle desings, where massive engines, fuel tanks, and absurb amounts of weapons and systems all seem to fit on a single vehicle because enogh money was thrown at it. I'm working on a system for tweaking vessels more then that. A hull only holds so much stuff (engines, fuel/power cores, weapons, people, etc) and its a bit of a balencing act... but you can lean the balence toward spicific goals... speed, endurance, manuvering, handling, big guns, lots of smaller guns, cargo, or even make a flying "home base" location with brigs, churches, labs, etc. If your even checking in on the project or working on rules of your own, I'm betting you arn't happy with the rules that are out there either. So instead of letting the pilot (who determines the movements of the vehicle) roll for a initative your going to give each vehicle a flat init modifer to represent the little guy in a treadmill, the bosun, and anyone else that keeps the vehilce working? Ok, how do you determine that modifier? average up all the init modifiers of everyone onboard? Take into acount who has what job? (wouldn't the little guy on the tread mill who can't see anyting just keep running all the time regardless of when the vehilce enters combat?) I'd argue that controlling the actions of a vehicle is an action that the pilot takes, and that determining when a pilot (or any NPC/PC) gets to take any actions is done through a Init check for that NPC/PC. THUS a vehicle has no Init score/modifer/etc. A pilot gets to pilot on his turn, and the abilities of he and his crew to move, manuver, and use their vehicle is determiend by that vehilce, but the WHEN (durring the theoretical 6 seconds where everything happens at the same time anyway) is done through normal Init meahtods. Does a zombie, skeleton, stone golem, etc have Inteligence, stamina or "sentinent" characteristics? Not really, but that's why "creatures" can have stats of "-" for things like Int, Con, etc. A Stone Golem "structual strength," "durability," and "it does not rationalize things it reads it and displays it with the minimun of its own mechanical awareness." It also uses creature stats. Also, does your Biplane have AI or scanners? not really, but would that require it to use completly new stat formating, terms, and rules? [/QUOTE]
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