Character Build: Dragon Disciple

[Thanee]

I know you can't use it continuously. Are you trying to say that the damage stinks? If he really wants to tank, he should focus on defense first and worry about offense second or even third.

Psychologically, a breath weapon is great for attracting opponents' attention, though, which is another thing he needs to worry about as a defense-oriented player.

The only thing the Dragon Disciple's breath weapon is good for is to attract laughter!

A character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored, while the high offense low defense ones will be slaughtered. You need to be good at both defense *and* offense to be a good 'tank' IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. As an addition to my above post... the Rage Mage PrC (2-4 levels) would also mix in well, I guess. Except for one feat, the prerequisites would be covered, too.

 

[moritheil]

The only thing the Dragon Disciple's breath weapon is good for is to attract laughter!

A character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored, while the high offense low defense ones will be slaughtered. You need to be good at both defense *and* offense to be a good 'tank' IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. As an addition to my above post... the Rage Mage PrC (2-4 levels) would also mix in well, I guess. Except for one feat, the prerequisites would be covered, too.

How will the NPCs know, unless the DM is metagaming? It could just have happened to put out low damage for the breath weapon the first time it hit them. Will they really want to ignore a breath weapon, which is classically terrifying? Or are all villains so well-educated that they know that DD breath weapons are weak?

See, I don't disagree that "a character that is good at defense and bad at offense is no threat and will be ignored," but these things aren't (or shouldn't be) obvious. And a greatsword wielder full power attacking, maybe with Smite Evil, and a True Strike to make sure he doesn't miss, will at least make a good first impression.

 

[Thanee]

A dragon is terrifying.

That's just a weird-looking human, who breathes fire (or something else), that doesn't really do anything.

Using the breath weapon is just a waste of time, unfortunately. It might be good for posing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[moritheil]

A dragon is terrifying.

That's just a weird-looking human, who breathes fire (or something else), that doesn't really do anything.

Using the breath weapon is just a waste of time, unfortunately. It might be good for posing.

Bye
Thanee

It's not my intent to dispute how bad DD breath damage is, but I do take issue with your implication that the paladin/sorc 13str DD build won't be able to attract enemy attention.

 

[Thanee]

Well, that's certainly possible... it's not like he wouldn't be able to do some damage. I was more speaking of your general assessment, that offense could be sacrificed pretty much for defense.

In any way, the Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple would be *way* better with different stats, tho... like:

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 15+1

Bye
Thanee

 

[moritheil]

Well, that's certainly possible... it's not like he wouldn't be able to do some damage. I was more speaking of your general assessment, that offense could be sacrificed pretty much for defense.

In any way, the Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple would be *way* better with different stats, tho... like:

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 15+1

Bye
Thanee

Well, let me explain my thinking on putting that 16 into dex. The enemies will probably eventually start gunning for the DD with ranged touch spells, since his saves are so good. You therefore want decent dex. Also, you want to ramp AC as high as possible, and Dex is the stat that contributes to that.

I don't think you can have no offense, but since the guy playing this is absolutely paranoid about his inability to take damage, you might want to play more for the safe side of things when you show him the possibilities.

I do stand by my comment that defense is your focus before offense when it comes to tanks. I've seen a lot of tank makers ignore my advice to invest in a lot of armor and defensive magic and instead dump all their gp into weapons; they invariably end up needing new characters before too long. Obviously you're familiar enough with the game mechanics and efficiencies to not have that problem, but for those who tend to focus on awesome weaponry (IME, the majority of players), I tend to tell them their priority should be defense.

 

[Thanee]

Well, let me explain my thinking on putting that 16 into dex. The enemies will probably eventually start gunning for the DD with ranged touch spells, since his saves are so good. You therefore want decent dex. Also, you want to ramp AC as high as possible, and Dex is the stat that contributes to that.

It's certainly useful, but it's not worth to reduce your *primary* ability that much (IMHO, of course).

I don't think you can have no offense, but since the guy playing this is absolutely paranoid about his inability to take damage, you might want to play more for the safe side of things when you show him the possibilities.

Hmm... that is one point, which I'm not entirely sure of... while 'tank' usually refers to defense, as you obviously use it, I've quite often seen people use it synonymously with 'melee fighter', including stuff like raging barbarians, who dish out damage like crazy, but have no AC to speak of.

The original post speaks of hit points and melee talents, so I take it to mean 'tank' as both, defensive *and* offensive there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sledge]

First off, the core DD is underpowered. I've done the math and it is basically 2 or so levels behind by 10th. That said, it has coolness. The thing to do with those stats is to throw an 18 into str and con, and the 15 into cha for the sorceror/bard level. Dex doesn't need to be high, because you really don't need the spells so ASF is irrelevant.

For classes I would personally take either barbarian or fighter, and probably fighter as all those bonus feats will allow you to take advantage of the flavour of the character.

If you must go high dex low armour, I strongly urge you to take even levels of sorceror or 4 levels of bard.

 

[moritheil]

It's certainly useful, but it's not worth to reduce your *primary* ability that much (IMHO, of course).

Hmm... that is one point, which I'm not entirely sure of... while 'tank' usually refers to defense, as you obviously use it, I've quite often seen people use it synonymously with 'melee fighter', including stuff like raging barbarians, who dish out damage like crazy, but have no AC to speak of.

The original post speaks of hit points and melee talents, so I take it to mean 'tank' as both, defensive *and* offensive there.

Bye
Thanee

Interesting semantics. I always assumed barbs were considered tanks due to their frontline positions, d12 hit dice, increased hps during rage, and their DR, and that it had nothing to do with damage output.

I take it by your statement above that you consider strength/damage dealing to be the primary emphasis of paladins . . . I don't know. There are other ways to take care of many of the other things that call for strength. More damage is always good, of course, but . . . throwing an 18 into strength when you're going to get a lot of strength increases from DD anyhow, and you could instead improve your saves, doesn't sit well with me. YMMV.

 

[Scion]

While it is a bit out there (and potentially not part of 'core + completes', my group considers the 3.5 psionics handbook to be core and it is certainly better balanced than the completes) you could try to convince the dm to change the arcane parts to psionic.

At that point you could go psychic warrior 5 to get in (knowledge psionic instead of arcane, able to manifest powers instead of cast spells without preperation, add autohypnosis as a class skill). Have him focus on claw and bite powers and effects that boost these. He will be a fighting machine with his weapons.

At some point he feels the calling of the dragon, but in this case it is one of the psionic dragons (gem dragons, they are in one of the monstrous manuals and available for download several places).

At second level in the prc he will get a claw/claw/bite routine, which will fit perfectly with the character concept. He should at this point find someone to get psychic reformation to trade out his claw and bite powers for others more fitting.

Everytime he would have gotten 'extra spell 1' he instead gets enough pp to manifest his highest level power once. For a 5th level psychic warrior this would be 3 pp.

While very strange I think this could actually be a very viable concept.

Stats would go as follows:
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 15 (+1)
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 10

Feats something along the lines of improved natural attack claw and bit, multiattack, various weapon focus.. you know the drill.

I think it'd wind up being pretty fun Basically a character who focuses primarily upon natural weapons and tearing things apart with his hands and teeth then starts turning into a dragon. Nice.