Character Optimization through play.

smbakeresq

Explorer
I always thought character optimization to be through character advancement options. I love this mentality that you presented here, it is more focused on the fiction than on min/maxing. Would work well for OSR style play as well it seems. Great advice!

A great look on this a Wizard. Almost every Wizard direct damage spell is bad to terrible, the non-damaging but disabling options are far better. Look at Hypnotism, it can completely change a tough combat into an easy win.

Thinking about how to play affects the DM also. For example, if a creature has blindsight, it knows it has blindsight and would use it to its advantage. Its lair would always be dark, and would also have other things to block vision even if its enemies bring lighting. A Green Dragon can live in a cloudkill spell. Grimlocks living near a volcano would know to dump water on the lava river to make a cloud of steam (as spell Fog Cloud) to hinder enemies. A Roper knows is reach is 50' and most creatures cant climb, so it would certainly be on the ceiling 20' in the air in a room with a 30' radius.

If as a player your monk gets slippers of spider climbing there is no reason to walk on the floor where every pit trap is.
 

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Gavin O.

First Post
Almost every Wizard direct damage spell is bad to terrible.

That's not true at all. Yes Wizards have good options for disabling, but a wizard can also put out great direct damage, especially since they excel at an area where many other classes are lacking, which is area damage.

Magic Missile is a respectable amount of damage for the first few levels, dealing 10.5 on average and never missing. Fireball is excellent, Storm Sphere is excellent, Cone of Cold is strong, Disintigrate is amazing in combination with portent to force a failed save, and Prismatic Wall is incredible.

At level 3, a battle master fighter with a greatsword using a maneuver does (2d6+1d8+3 * 0.6) = 8.7 damage, assuming a 60% hit chance (which is the number I'll use for all these calculations). That's less than a 1st level magic missile does.

At level 5, fireball is the king of damage, easily outperforming any weapon class when used against multiple targets. it deals 28 damage on average with half on a save (60% chance of 28 + 40% chance of 14 works out to 22.4 damage on average), where a level 5 fighter with a greatsword using two maneuvers would deal (4d6+2d8+8 *0.6) = 18.6 damage, to one target. If a wizard hits 3 targets with their fireball, they deal about 4 rounds worth of the fighter's damage.

That's not to say that pure damage wizards are the optimal build, control is still a huge aspect of an optimized wizard, but don't sleep on the direct damage spells, especially if your DM likes to throw hordes at you. Killing them one by one is far less efficient than hitting six of them at once.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
That's not true at all. Yes Wizards have good options for disabling, but a wizard can also put out great direct damage, especially since they excel at an area where many other classes are lacking, which is area damage.

Magic Missile is a respectable amount of damage for the first few levels, dealing 10.5 on average and never missing. Fireball is excellent, Storm Sphere is excellent, Cone of Cold is strong, Disintigrate is amazing in combination with portent to force a failed save, and Prismatic Wall is incredible.

At level 3, a battle master fighter with a greatsword using a maneuver does (2d6+1d8+3 * 0.6) = 8.7 damage, assuming a 60% hit chance (which is the number I'll use for all these calculations). That's less than a 1st level magic missile does.

At level 5, fireball is the king of damage, easily outperforming any weapon class when used against multiple targets. it deals 28 damage on average with half on a save (60% chance of 28 + 40% chance of 14 works out to 22.4 damage on average), where a level 5 fighter with a greatsword using two maneuvers would deal (4d6+2d8+8 *0.6) = 18.6 damage, to one target. If a wizard hits 3 targets with their fireball, they deal about 4 rounds worth of the fighter's damage.

That's not to say that pure damage wizards are the optimal build, control is still a huge aspect of an optimized wizard, but don't sleep on the direct damage spells, especially if your DM likes to throw hordes at you. Killing them one by one is far less efficient than hitting six of them at once.

Wizards are bad at direct damage. Spells are a limited resource, and wizards fall behind at every level for doing damage. Using your level 3 example, the battle master will never miss, as maneuvers trigger on HITS, so the damage is 11.5 + 3 = 14.5, a MM is 3xd4+3 or 10.5. When the Wizard runs out of spells, he will be using a cantrip, which is 5.5 if you use Fire Bolt, while the fighter will still be plugging away with for an average of 10 damage reduced by miss chance.

MM cant critical either, there is no to hit roll, but a melee type can and can get forced crits for huge rolls because they can use on hit abilities such as Divine smite and max everything. Melee types can also get advantage in many ways, increasing chances to hit and critical hit. This handicaps a wizard all the way through the levels.

Rogues will be backstabbing for more, Paladins smiting for more, etc.

At second level a great damage dealing spell is Suggestion. Tell them to take their armor off, that's results in a lot of damage. Or "We can help you take over if you help us kill your boss" does a lot of damage also.

Fireball is iconic but terrible, 28 if the fail, 14 if they pass, but to more than one creature. Its also unfriendly as an area of affect. If they don't pass and if they don't have some sort of resistance, sure. At fifth level, 2nd attacks are coming on for the melee types, as is other things. So the monk will be getting 4 shots in, with 2 chances to prone them as a rider or a stun effect. A monks base damage is 4d6 + 16 at that level (using a Ki point for FOB and the ABI at level 4) which is 30 if it all hits, and if any of them hit they can throw in a stun. The real horde killing spell at 3rd level is Spirit Guardians, which is friendly, targets a worse save and can damage them multiple times round after round. The fighter you mention wouldn't miss so its actual 14+9+10 (the abi) or 33 points of damage to one target. Instead of Fireball, if you want to do damage use Melfs Meteors.


For third level spells you better off using your slots on Hypnotic Pattern or Fear (the enemies that fail the Fireball spell DC will just be removed from combat) or even Slow with the right enemies as it just hampers more then any amount of damage except for dead. You get to pick the targets also.

At 4th level Storm Sphere is ok, the real damage spell is Polymorph. Transform into a damage dealer monster like a Trex for attacks at +10 for 4d12+7 and +10 for 3d8 +7, round after round.

Cone of Cold is the same as fireball at 5th level, 36 average damage instead of 35. The real damage spell at level 5 is Animate Objects with Caltrops, so that's up to 10 caltrops attacking at +8 to hit for d4+4 damage each, all of which can critical hit. That's 8d4+32 round after round, while doing other things. Its your own personal army of spheres from Phantasm.

Disintegrate with a failed save is 75 damage. Animate objects cast at 6th level is 10 objects or 10d4+40 round after round. Disintegrate has other utility uses though.

Prismatic Wall is great if you can get them through it somehow. Or if you just need to seal an area off. Its generally more defensive though. However if you can bull rush people into it somehow it is great.


The idea is that Wizards are best in a different role. The game has enough damage dealers, Wizards should be played the other way and smart and creatively. If you Hold a creature, every critical hit done to it is YOUR damage, that's how you deal damage. Slow give up to 6 creatures -2 to AC, that lets those Great Weapons users a chance to take the -3 for +10 damage. Only smart players will see it, but its as a result of you.

BTW, for hordes, play a lore bard and as spell secrets get Spirit Guardians and Destructive Wave (8 levels before Paladins do.) You can then have it both ways, as Hypnotic Pattern and Fear are on your spell list also.
 
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Paul Smart

Explorer
One thing every character I play buys is a bottle of good wine. It can cheer your party members up, be drunk to keep you warm at night, is a great bribe, makes a great gift if you are in the upper class part of town. Never leave home without it.
 

Gavin O.

First Post
One thing every character I play buys is a bottle of good wine. It can cheer your party members up, be drunk to keep you warm at night, is a great bribe, makes a great gift if you are in the upper class part of town. Never leave home without it.


Plus, if you're okay wasting good wine, you can always throw the bottle at someone and light the alcohol on fire.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Gotta say:

1) 3.5 was my and my group’s favorite edition, and we ALWAYS used hold prison in combat as a “damage buff”- hold it & kill it were de rigueur.

2) while the melee classes could spam direct damage, spellcasters’ ability to do mass direct damage in the form of AoE was unmatched. Ditto ranged attacks. And often, the spells that did such damage had ancillary effects, like setting things on fire. All of those factors could turn the tide of a combat.

3) wine is a weak acid. Saliva is also an acid, as is urine. IOW, it may seem disgusting, but “acid” is is a spell component you should literally never run out of.
 


smbakeresq

Explorer
One thing every character I play buys is a bottle of good wine. It can cheer your party members up, be drunk to keep you warm at night, is a great bribe, makes a great gift if you are in the upper class part of town. Never leave home without it.

You should carry wine, as alcohol it dissolves sticky things like wand of Viscid Globs
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Gotta say:

1) 3.5 was my and my group’s favorite edition, and we ALWAYS used hold prison in combat as a “damage buff”- hold it & kill it were de rigueur.

2) while the melee classes could spam direct damage, spellcasters’ ability to do mass direct damage in the form of AoE was unmatched. Ditto ranged attacks. And often, the spells that did such damage had ancillary effects, like setting things on fire. All of those factors could turn the tide of a combat.

3) wine is a weak acid. Saliva is also an acid, as is urine. IOW, it may seem disgusting, but “acid” is is a spell component you should literally never run out of.

Hold person is still just as good
 

shadowoflameth

Adventurer
Equipment advise for every adventure every character, Rope. Cheap, light and comes up often. Can't tell you how many non-combat obstacles and even let's tie this guy up and leave him here moments needed rope over the years.
 

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