Chargen with Hubris

[jcfiala]

In the thread that's arguing over point-buy vs. random, I came up with the suggestion of allowing players to pick their stats, with a caviat:

"Pick whatever stats you want or need. 3-18. Your choice. But total up how many points it would cost to make that character with point buy, subtract 32, and that's your Hubris score. Write that on your sheet so I can see it."

"Hubris? What's it for? Oh, you'll find out."

Someone suggested I start a thread to discuss what Hubris could do, so this is that.

First off, Hubris is supposed to be a breaking factor of sorts. I'm telling folks that they can choose the character they want - but that if you try to overreach something'll happen. Characters with all 18s are going to face a world where the gods are punishing them for their pride: Monsters, given the choice of hitting the Sorcerer with 2 hubris and the fighter with 20, are going to tend to choose the 20. Barwenches who hit on the folks with high hubris are going to be more interested in their purses than their CHA scores, also.

Good things are going to marginally favor the folks with lower hubris, too, I think. If I'm putting together the treasure for the Orc King, if the Paladin has a hubris of 12 and the Wizard has a hubris of 0, then I'm more likely to put in a Cloak of the Archmage than a Holy avenger. (On the other hand, if the hubris was switched, then maybe the Cloak would be for the wrong alignment and the holy avenger would be there.)

It's random thoughts in the middle of the night when I'm tired, so I'm not entirely sure that's making sense.

On the other hand, it might be possible to tie it down a little more mechanically. If I were playing Eberron, I might take the average # of hubris for the group, and decide that every 3 or 4 points of hubris below average gives you an extra action point, and every 3 or 4 points of hubris above average gives you one less.

Or, perhaps every 3 points of hubris represents DR 1/- that critters have vs. you. If Bob the fighter with the 18 strength and 12 points of hubris hits the orc with his sword, the damage done is reduced by 4, but if Terry the Rogue (with 1 point) hits the orc, then all the damage goes through. The same could apply to spells, and with spells that have effects but no damage, perhaps some ratio of hubris could be assigned to the saving throws... but that may be too much like cancelling out the benefit of the higher stats.

On the other hand, Bob still has the +4 to hit the orc from his strength, even if the +4 damage is cancelled, and the mage with the penalty to his saving throws on non-damaging spells still gets the bonus spells and skill points for his high int.

So, there's some ideas thrown against the walls. What do people think?

 

[Archade]

That's a great idea!

Let players pick their stats, and add up the stat modifiers -- anything +4 and under is fine. Anything above that gains a point of hubris for every +1 modifier above +4.

You could keep it story based, like evil wenches, pickpockets, bad luck, and the like, or you could make it a rules thing, like -5% per +1 to XP earned, DR 1/- for enemies, or the like.

 

[JustKim]

I like the idea a lot in theory, though I wouldn't want to use it personally.

DR and saving throw bonuses don't seem like they would amount to anything compared to the bonuses you would have. I don't think that one is really worth pursuing, just more math for you.

A couple of ideas occur to me, in every encounter (combat, roleplaying, exploration, whatever) you could roll a d20 for each character with a hubris score. If the die comes up less than the character's hubris score, roll another d20, and another, until you go over the character's hubris score. The number of dice you roll before going over is the number of things that will go wrong for the character in that encounter. So if the character has 20 hubris and you roll 5, 8 and 17, two things would go wrong for the character. It could be making a faux pas during a social situation, stumbling during a charge, or setting off a trap that the rogue had deactivated and everyone else walked by. The treasure thing could be used if the character still has "unluck points" at the end of the encounter.

Similar to above you could roll d10s until you exceed the character's hubris score. Every die that you rolled before going over could be substituted for one of the character's rolls for that day. So for the same 20 hubris character you could roll 4, 9, 2 and 10, and for that day you could substitute any of the character's rolls with a 4, 9 or 2.

Easier to adjucate than "the gods don't like you", I think, but the concept is sound.

 

[Nomad4life]

This is one of the more interesting “game balance” approaches I’ve seen in some time… But something about it seems a little bit “off.” I’ll have to think about it at work today and see if I can figure out what.

Cool idea in theory, though. (Or, at least the beginnings of one?)

 

[jcfiala]

DR and saving throw bonuses don't seem like they would amount to anything compared to the bonuses you would have. I don't think that one is really worth pursuing, just more math for you.

Well, the idea isn't to completely negate the character's bonuses - just to mitigate them, but that's true.

Another possibility is to apply the hubris as a penalty of some sort to the item saving throws for the items he owns - everyone else survives the fireball fine, but Bob's sword melts.

Or... maybe a chance to roll for each magic item that it ends up being cursed in some way? The +1 sword turns out to strike a friend, or is just a -1 sword really, and can't be left behind except with a 'remove curse'.

Again, just throwing out ideas to try and figure out something that fits.

 

[Umbran]

So, there's some ideas thrown against the walls. What do people think?

I am not sure I like the idea, at least not quite as presented as "hubris", as that word may end up being a bit misleading. Specifically, what if the character isn't prideful? Do the gods still punish them? You can have high stats and be humble, too....

This is equivalent to the merts/flaws or advantages/disadvantages seen in other games - if you want good stats, ou have to pay for them by having something working against you. Not intrisically bad, but I just don't want to see it linked to an assumption of behavior.

Do the same math, and tell the players you'll be assigning or scaling disadvantages based upon the score, and I'm fine with it.

I would warn, however, on making it too prevalent. You really don't want the socre applying to everything that happens. That's a headache waiting to happen, and if you slack off and fail to apply it properly, you're sticking it to the guy who decided to not take high stats.

 

[jcfiala]

I am not sure I like the idea, at least not quite as presented as "hubris", as that word may end up being a bit misleading. Specifically, what if the character isn't prideful? Do the gods still punish them? You can have high stats and be humble, too....

Very true. At the time I thought it up, it really applied more to the _player_ than to the character.

I would warn, however, on making it too prevalent. You really don't want the socre applying to everything that happens. That's a headache waiting to happen, and if you slack off and fail to apply it properly, you're sticking it to the guy who decided to not take high stats.

Very true. It's like taking an NPC dependent in Champions (like a girlfriend), and not having her be threatened by the Villian of the week once every three games like they should be. It's not a disadvantage if it idoesn't restrict you.

I suppose it could be called 'bad luck', altough I liked 'hubris' for it's $5 word value - it fits in well with Mr. Gygax's vocabulary. What's a $5 word for bad luck, I wonder?

 

[Archade]

How about Schadenfreude? It's german for taking pleasure in another person's misfortune ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

 

[Piratecat]

Monsters, given the choice of hitting the Sorcerer with 2 hubris and the fighter with 20, are going to tend to choose the 20.

The problem here is that risk is the definition of heroism, and it's often fun and exciting to be targeted in combat. I'd feel bad for that sorcerer, who has low scores and a safer - and thus less heroic - D&D experience.

 

[TheNovaLord]

i kinda like the idea.

the higher the party are above 32 points, the more 'action points' ala eberron the DM has too assist his BBEG and even so NSBBMG, maybe even the odd orc gets a +d6 to his saving throw as 'the gods/fate' rebalance things

would be interesting to say to the party 'assign stats as fits your character concept'

JohnD