Charm Monster

[Winternight]

A group of Orc`s is rushing to the group.
Many goblin wolfriders in the front as cannon fodder
a lot orcs behind, follwed by some blackorcs
In the back are two Orc Shaman standing side by side, flanked by ogers.
The group is cleaving the goblins and killing some orcs, the shamans are hruling spells in the fray sometimes hitting some of their own people.
Now the PC mage cast a charm monster on one of the shamans and succeed (no save)
What will the shaman do?
He sees the wizard as a friend, but not the other PCs.
The PC are killing his (and his rivals) underlings
He is CEand never ever heard the concept of friendship.
What will the shaman do?

 

[bensei]

If he never heard the concept of friendship before, his strongest positive feelings are now towards the PC mage. Hence, he would try to prevent anyone from harming him. (See the example in the DMG under Charm.)
A LG character would try to convince the attackers of the PC mage to stop this, but as the Orc is CE, he could certainly fire some attacks at anyone who seems to attack the PC mage.

 

[Thanee]

If in doubt you could just roll for him each round whether he attack the goblinoids attacking the wizard or the PCs attacking the goblinoids (who are still his allies).

It depends a bit on how much he "cares" for his allies... maybe it would make even more sense to blast them exclusively!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Keith]

No save? I thought it was a Will save. At plus five since you were attacking it and allies at the time.

That aside, In this case the spell would only last on that individual if combat ceased, I think. They might then try and pursued their allies that the PC was their friend. Given that the PC continues to be part of a group of strangers attacking the closest acquaintances the Orc has, I would rule the spell broken, as per the Charm Person description, after one round.
The spell results in a creature regarding you as A friend, not by any stretch their best or most trusted one.
That’s my take on it. Not really a middle-of-fight spell.

 

[bensei]

The Charm XY spells apear in many examples in the PHB (e.g. ready action to charm the first orc who comes into range, etc.). So the spells are meant to have some use in combat. Actually, they are meant to be quiteuseful, i.e. a 1st level spell applied correctly might turn one foe into an ally. Exactly for that reason they made them quite easy to resist in combat.

 

[Keith]

Oh yea, I agree totally . My point was not about combat, particularly the start of combat, when those spells are great. But when you have already attacked an opponent, and will continue to do so, those spells will not help much. That was what I meant by middle-of-fight, not combat situations in general.

Cheers

 

[jgsugden]

There is specific language in the charm spells: The target sees you as a trusted friend and ally. Treat the target's attitude as friendly.

Friendly specifically menas that the creature will chat with you, advise, you, offer limited help or advocate for you in role playing situations.

The spell ends if any actions by you *or your allies* threatens the charmed individual.

Exactly how this plays out is up to the DM, but if I were the DM, I'd probably do the following:

1.) Have the shaman immediately give orders to not attack the spellcaster (Note: charm says that you are seen as a trusted ally and friend. - Your allies are given no such benefit). This would take place on the shaman's turn.

2.) If any PC attacked the allies of the target, I would conside this a threat against the shaman unless extra efforts were made to reassure the shaman that he was not in danger (requiring a charisma check or a diplomacy check at the minimum). That threat would end the spell.

This spell is next to useless in a large melee. It is best used in single combat or when combat has not yet begun.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, that's true. Suggestion is better in combat situations.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The spell results in a creature regarding you as A friend, not by any stretch their best or most trusted one.

Well, your average orc doesn't have *any* friends. So if you charm him and become his friend, you're suddenly his best friend and the creature he trusts most (except his god maybe).

As has been said, the spell renders him a friend, and what he will do from now on depends on his alignment and personality.

Usually they now see friends fighting against each other, and will try to separate them. But, as I said, these orcs aren't the shaman's friends, nor does he trust them. But he trusts the caster, and the caster is his friend. And if I saw my best friend fighting some bastards I don't trust as far as I can throw them, I will find out how far I trust those (by throwing them).

 

[Keith]

I'm not sure I grasp at all the idea that the other orcs are not friends, or the idea that the average orc has none. Perhaps that is one interpretation of the alignment of orcs, but I think there is substantial room to see it differently. Even if you ascribe only acts of self- interest to these creatures, they associate by choice and with reason.

Should they be incapable of having friends (which is not my take on it), then the spell is also incapable of rendering a character their friend. Either way, they are going to side with the more familiar individuals in a case of open combat, like this one. The spell is not, I think, intended to have the impact of overturning all reason and prior assessments, but only of making a person friendly as long as you are not hostile.

It is an interesting topic to compare interpretations on, though, and certainly not one where the rules will resolve every variable.

Cheers