Charm Person/ Monster questions

[Abyssenia]

Hi all, new to the boards.

Anyway as I am going to run an enchantress I wanted to get a good understanding of charm person, charm monster, and to a lesser extend hypnotism. Since it seems like they might be more of a non-combat or precombat spells I was wondering about attempts being noticed and possible repercussions. Charming a guard or noble for example might be nice but not so much if a succesful save is percieved as an attack.

1) Firstly i was wondering if specators would be able to see you cast it. ie... could it be combined with say bluff or otherwise slipped into conversation, or might that require still spell and/or silent spell feats? Could you pull subtly it off more like Obiwan Kinobe in Star Wars 'not the droids'?

2) If the spell fails would they be aware of your attempt to do something to them? Would they be aware if you cast silently and invisibly or hiding but they make their save?

3) Charm spell as ice breaker.-
If your charm spell is successful and you proceed to treat them very well, and don't have them do anything against alignment or outrageous would they know they were charmed after the spell wears off? Could you continue to interact with them as a friend, albit with unusual beginning to friendship. I am abit worried about angry post-charm individuals going after poor enchantress.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A target of a spell is always aware that "something just happened" when they make a successful save.

A caster is always aware that "that didn't work" when a target makes a successful save.

There's a Feat in Song and Silence (Disguise Spell, from memory) that allows a bard to conceal a spell within a musical performance.

The rules for noticing Silent Stilled spells are hazy and contradictory in various sources. Casting a Silent, Stilled spell still draws an Attack of Opportunity. It is still identifiable via Spellcraft, though Tome and Blood, I think, recommends a DC increase.

Without Disguise Spell, however, the rules make no provision for casting a spell while holding a conversation etc, even if it has no V component.

-Hyp.

 

[Spatula]

1) Firstly i was wondering if specators would be able to see you cast it. ie... could it be combined with say bluff or otherwise slipped into conversation, or might that require still spell and/or silent spell feats? Could you pull subtly it off more like Obiwan Kinobe in Star Wars 'not the droids'?

You need the feats. Otherwise, you'll probably want to cast it out of sight of others. The Jedi-mind trick would be more of a suggestion than a charm, though.

2) If the spell fails would they be aware of your attempt to do something to them? Would they be aware if you cast silently and invisibly or hiding but they make their save?

See PHB page 150, "Succeeding at a Saving Throw." The target feels "a hostile force or tingle."

3) Charm spell as ice breaker.-
If your charm spell is successful and you proceed to treat them very well, and don't have them do anything against alignment or outrageous would they know they were charmed after the spell wears off? Could you continue to interact with them as a friend, albit with unusual beginning to friendship. I am abit worried about angry post-charm individuals going after poor enchantress.

I think it's up in the air whether or not they know they've been enchanted, or just remember "acting strangely" during the spell's duration. Intelligent people might be able to put two and two together, even if they don't automatically know.

 

[Spatula]

The rules for noticing Silent Stilled spells are hazy and contradictory in various sources. Casting a Silent, Stilled spell still draws an Attack of Opportunity. It is still identifiable via Spellcraft,

"You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components." From the Spellcraft skill description. I would throw material components in there as well, although perhaps that doesn't require a skill check (i.e. either you know what the bat guano is for or you don't).

 

[hong]

I would throw material components in there as well, although perhaps that doesn't require a skill check (i.e. either you know what the bat guano is for or you don't).

Personally, I'd say that every adventurer past 6th level or so knows what bat guano is for.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components."

A Still Spell doesn't have somatic components.

If it did, you couldn't cast it in a grapple.

By the letter of the rules, if someone around the cornet casts a Magic Missile, you can't identify it, because you can't see the somatic component. But if they cast a Still Magic Missile, you can... because it doesn't have one.

However, I think it makes sense to read the quoted rule as "You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components or lack thereof." That means that if you see him wiggling his fingers and chanting, you can identify the spell as Magic Missile; if you just see him chanting, you can identify it as a Still Magic Missile; and if you see him just concentrating, you can identify it as a Still Silent Magic Missile.

In which case, the suggested penalties from Tome and Blood (I think - IDHTBIFOM) make sense.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Personally, I'd say that every adventurer past 6th level or so knows what bat guano is for.

Well, yeah, but there's a difference between the fighter realising the significance of "Boy, hand me my bat guano!", and the mage recognising the chalky stuff the villain thirty feet away is fiddling with...

-Hyp.

 

[Spatula]

A Still Spell doesn't have somatic components.

In which case you can't see it, eh? I think you're making the rules here more complicated then they really are. If a spell has no visible or audible components, then you can't ID it with Spellcraft.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In which case you can't see it, eh?

"Those who do not turn their weapons over to the Guard will not be admitted to the Emperor's presence."
"But I don't have any weapons!"
"Well, you'd best go home and get one, then, hadn't you?"

Can someone with a copy of Tome and Blood handy post the bit about Spellcraft DCs for metamagicked spells?

-Hyp.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Here's what it says in the Tome & Blood:

You scrutinize the spellcaster, listening to the words used in the spell, observing the caster's gestures, and noting any material components or focus. For each of these elements that cannot be discerned the DC increases by +2. For example, if a foe casts a still and silent spell your spellcraft check DC increases by +4.

You can use Spellcraft to identify a spell even if the spell has no verbal, somatic, or material component.... However, you still must be able to see or hear the spellcaster.