Charm Person, Suggestion how do you playit?

[Tharen the Damned]

So how do you handle these Spells?
How does a charmed person react, if the PCs slaughter his friends (say, a charmed Ork Shaman and the PCs killing his Warriors).
What does the charmed enemy tell you about the Plans of the PCs opponents?
If you charm a person in the middle of a battle, what does she do?


What is a reasonable suggestion, what is over the Top?
Can you suggest a course of action to a semi intelligent creature?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, from the description of charm person, it notes that it causes the target to regard the caster as a trusted friend and ally.

If the companions of one of my trusted friends are slaughtering my minions, I will try to stop them and I will ask my "friend" to help me. I will also order my minions to stand down. Because of my friend's trust, his friends have a few rounds to stand down before I'll use lethal force.

If my "friend" is helping them, charm's broken. If he's helping to break up the fight, then even if my minions lose, he's done alright by me, so charm's still in place-- but his friends better watch their backs.

As for what a charmed creature will tell you about his boss's plans... that depends on the creature. How disciplined is the creature? I can see Orcs spilling it pretty easily, while Hobgoblins might take some more convincing.

If I'm charmed in the middle of battle, I figure the effect is like suddenly recognizing one of your enemies as being a close friend. Think of the Civil War, and you discover that one of the soldiers across the battlefield is your brother.

Suggestion I'm having a rougher time with-- I'm in the middle of an argument about it over on the Wizard's boards. Part of it is, it depends on the DM's interpretation of "sounds reasonable", and the example in the book doesn't strike me as sounding reasonable at all.

I do not regularly take "a refreshing swim" in a pool of acid.

I try to treat suggestion like the Jedi Mind Trick in the Star Wars movies. "These are not the droids you're looking for." "You don't need to see my identification." "You don't want to sell me death-sticks."

You can get a lot of mileage out of this spell, as long as you're not trying to get people to swim in acid with it. It's just more of a roleplaying interaction spell than a combat spell-- in a political/intrigue-based game, you can do terrible damage with it.

If you can get a fiend to blow its save on a suggestion, "Your master is plotting against you. We can help you destroy him" will work wonders.

As for suggesting a course of action to a semi-intelligent creature, I suppose the biggest obstacle is making your suggestion understood-- does you speak a language it can understand? If so, simple suggestions shouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

[Voadam]

charmed people treat the caster as their friends and trusted allies so they don't attack them and might protect them. This is a great spell for getting info out of a new "buddy". They won't stop attacking the rest of the party, and under extreme circumstances devoted servants will sacrifice their friends for their masters or cause.

In combat they will treat the caster as their friend so roleplay decisions and actions based off of that point of view for the charmed creature.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

A point through example:

The most important matter to remember, I think, about charm person is that although the spell has changed the way the target thinks about the caster, it has not changed who they are or what they are doing or why.

I don't like using my games as an example because YMMV but:

Way back in my campaign, the characters were up against an orc warlord who, with the help of an Arcanloth and other denizens from the lower planes, managed to unite the local orc tribes into an army set on conquest (a little cliche I know but it was fun). During an encounter with a scouting party, one player (it was R actually) seperated her character from the main battle and cast charm person on a lone orc before he entered the fray.
What happened was, the orc came to her and when she explained his friends were under attack he wanted to go help but she said not to because of the danger. I ruled that the orc would take his "best friends" advice. Then I thought about this orc: a typical orc warrior raised in a typical orc society currently serving in a typical orc army.
The next thing the player knows, her character is being dragged by this orc across the country side back to the main camp to report. All along the way she kept asking him questions and he wouldn't really answer them, only telling her bits and pieces.

I decided all this on the basis that even though the orc was charmed, he wasn't fundamentally changed in his principles. He wasn't going to give up to the PC's, and he wasn't going to betray his warlord chief either, and even though his "best friend" was asking questions he wasn't going to spill the beans because that was a security risk. That last decision was also made with the idea that your typical orc's views on women probably aren't the same as a human's and that this orc under the charm person viewed her not as a friend but as a favoured piece of property (which is why he was bringing her back, to be his new best wife/trophy).

I hope that illustrates my point; that charm person is not a spell that changes the targets mind radically and therefore everything they were before is still an important factor in their decisions.

Interestingly enough, that orc started out as a meaningless scout and through a bizarre series of events including the charm person, a serious behavour modification spell that we no longer use, a pixie memory loss arrow, and being raised by a Satyr, has become a serious NPC and the husband to R's character.

Weird huh?

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Tharen the Damned]

minor Banewarrens spoilers!

Thank you for your Replies!

My problem with Charm is: How does the charmed Creature react to the Charmers friends?
Normally those should still have the same status as before.
But what, if the Charmer tries to tell the Charmed Creature, that the other PCs are trustworthy (using Bluff or Diplomacy)?
I ruled, that this requieres a successfull check and if the check fails, the Charmed Creature gets another saving throw.
So far so good.
Here is my example: My PCs are currently exploring the Banewarrens (Adventure by Monte Cook -Malhavoc Press) and the Gnoll is part of an organisation of evil humanoids. Their Goal is to eradiate all good Humanoids. All members enter on their own free will and wear a ring, that does not let them physically hurt other members -betrayal and other niceties are still possible.
How much does a Gnoll tell of his organisations secrets?
That depends on allegiances, trust and fear maybe even friendship of the charmed creature to the Person or organisation he is asked about.
The Gnoll entered the organisation on his own free will and hates good humanoids (the PCs party consists of 2 humans 1 gnome and 1 dwarf). So the Gnoll should not spill the beans entirely. He will tell some things for sure (like how many creatures were in his raiding party and what races they are), but nothing of crucial secrets (like what their standard fighting technics are or what spells the XXX normally uses).
The whole time he muttered about torturing and killing the dwarf.
The dwarf reacted in typical dwarven manner: he let his Waraxe speak for him...

Ok, and here is my Suggestion example:
Party in the Banewarrens, fighting against Gorillons.The Gorillons were under a compulsion to attack the PCs because they opened a Door without the proper key. One Gorillon grappled the Sorcerer. Things looked bad. Then the gnome bard (using the bard from Book of Eldritch Might II by Monte Cook) cast a suggestive Cord (this Cord is equivalent to the Spell Suggestion).
He told the Creature to let the grappled person in peace.
Ok, I thought. The Gorillon dumped the Sorcerer and started to tear the dwarf apart...
Next round the Gnome used the Spell on another Gorillon, telling him, to let the strangers in peace.
The Gorillon stood there for one round, then ambled back to his lair and went to sleep (he does not have to eat and does not age, but has to sleep a lot).
After the session I though about this encounter.
Can you suggest something to a beast?
Can you override another compulsion?
I am sure that I played this dramaturgically right,
but I am not sure if I played this right regarding the Rules of the Spell.

What do you think?

 

[twofalls]

Suggestion

I play 3.0, and I also interpret the rules on suggestion that if you are suggested to do something that is immediatly and obviously harmful to yourself or others you are concerned about that breaks the spell (id. attack your friends, throw yourself on your sword).

Recent situation (last game) - The PC's were in a temple to Tempus that was under assault by magical and Devilish forces. Two PC's were in the High Priest's chambers where that priest's broken body was found as well as a defending Priestess who claimed the Devil was invisible somewhere in the room with them. The room was suddenly walled off from the rest of the party by a Wall of Ice, isolating them from the rest of the party (10th - 13th level characters). The female priest was actually a polymorphed Gelugon and she used suggestion to tell one of the PC's (10th level Dwarven Warmain) that the enemy was posessing their weapons and to get rid of his own before they were turned against him. DC was 21 and his will save was +11. He failed, and started shedding himself of his aresenal of weapons as fast as he could (while the player moaned in disgust). Once he was disarmed the Gelugon Polymorphed back into its Devilish form breaking the suggestion (as it was no longer "reasonable") but its fear aura caught the poor unarmed Dwarf and he failed his will save again and fled. The other PC in the room was taken to negative HP before the rest of the party broke through the Wall of Ice and the Devil teleported away to fight another day.

 

[Thanee]

Well, Suggestion is language-dependant and therefore you have to speak a language, that the creature understands. Other than that, I think the Suggestion example was fine that way.

Charm Person is basically next to useless in a combat, because it'll pretty much break automatically once the next character attacks one of the charmed person's allies (they are still allies, the spell does not change that). Besides there is a -5 save DC modifier in combat. It's just not a combat spell, Suggestion is more useful there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RangerWickett]

I believe the example with the pool of acid is under the assumption that the suggested target is not aware the pool is acid.

I let suggestion do a lot of things, but I don't let it override a survival instinct. In one game, a villain suggested a PC "go to sleep" during a huge fight. The character failed his save, and the DM ruled that for the next umpteen hours, the PC would lie down and try to go to sleep, despite the combat around him. I argued strongly that he's suggested, so he'll try to fulfill the suggestion, but he'll do it in the most effective way possible. Either he'll run away and go to sleep some place safer. Or he'll fight and kill all the monsters, then go to sleep.

Charm keeps you as the same person you are, but makes you think a person is a friend.

Suggestion keeps you as the same person you are, but makes you think a particular course of action is the best thing to do right now.

In either case, it's still up to you how you treat the friend/idea.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

But what, if the Charmer tries to tell the Charmed Creature, that the other PCs are trustworthy (using Bluff or Diplomacy)?

Friend-of-a-friend. As long as the PC's companions are acting the part, I'd say it usually works. A more paranoid creature might not trust the party, since they can't be sure they trust their "friend's" judgement, but they'll give them a chance because their friend vouches for them.

 

[Thanee]

I let suggestion do a lot of things, but I don't let it override a survival instinct. In one game, a villain suggested a PC "go to sleep" during a huge fight. The character failed his save, and the DM ruled that for the next umpteen hours, the PC would lie down and try to go to sleep, despite the combat around him. I argued strongly that he's suggested, so he'll try to fulfill the suggestion, but he'll do it in the most effective way possible.

Yep, going to sleep in combat is not a very reasonable course of action.

Suggestion should be voiced in a reasonable way.

Bye
Thanee