Charming the charmed

[dunbruha]

Hi-

If you try to cast "Charm Monster" on a creature that is currently "charmed" by someone else (an opponent), does it receive any bonus to its Will save? This happened today in my game: The BBEG had charmed a fire lizard to act as a guard for his fortress. The party's Bard tried to charm it (not knowing it already was charmed). I went with a +5 bonus (it made its save), but I was curious what others think. Thanks in advance.

-dunbruha

 

[Hypersmurf]

No bonus on the Will save, but from memory, there's a rule somewhere that if two people charm the same creature and give contradictory orders, it's resolved with an opposed Charisma check.

Ah, here we go.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

-Hyp.

 

[Staffan]

No bonus on the Will save, but from memory, there's a rule somewhere that if two people charm the same creature and give contradictory orders, it's resolved with an opposed Charisma check.

Ah, here we go.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

-Hyp.

That applies more to things like dominate than charm. Charm just makes the victim think the caster is a very good friend - it does not provide direct control.

In the case presented, I would rule that the charmed lizard would be pretty likely to let the bard and his friends past - sure, it's been told to guard the place, but hey, this bard fellow is cool, I know he wouldn't do anything bad. Things might be a bit different if the beast had been intelligent - I know that back when I was in the military and posted on guard duty, I wouldn't have let my friends through unless they could show me they had a right to be where I was guarding.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That applies more to things like dominate than charm. Charm just makes the victim think the caster is a very good friend - it does not provide direct control.

Although there is the 'orders' clause:

"You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do."

If you wouldn't let your friends past while on guard duty, but one of them (who was only your friend because he charmed you) won an opposed Cha check, he could order you to do so.

-Hyp.

 

[Staffan]

Although there is the 'orders' clause:

Ah, I had missed that. In that case, an opposed Charisma check against the other charmer would be appropriate.