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Chess is not an RPG: The Illusion of Game Balance

Celebrim

Legend
Every edition? I don't think so. 1e and 2e rather fail on the whole "balance" thing.

Agreed. And to a large extent, while there is lots of evidence that balance was important to the 3e team, they failed pretty hard due to lack of adequate testing of high level play. And as the game progressed, power creep became an important marketing tool, undermine the already problematic balance further. To a large extent, I feel balance was the most significant failing of an otherwise very robust, accommodating, and broad system. To deal with the huge balance problems of 3e, pretty much every table had to develop its own elaborate social contracts around how they would play the game. Some embraced to a large extent, "If everything is broken, then nothing is." Others had elaborate social norms regarding what was uncheesy and acceptable to play and pressured their peers to conform. Others, like me, house ruled like mad to try to make a set of rules where the valid character creation options were approved of by default.

The Gygaxian-style balance over the course of a whole campaign (wizards being weak to start, but dominating later, for example) is a mathematical, long-average balance, yes, but not effective in most sessions of actual game play, in which someone at the table gets the short end of the stick.

Agreed. Most attempts to deal with balance as a problem that can be resolved in the long term fail in actual play.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Oh, I agree that 1e and 2e largely failed at achieving balance. No argument from me. But, it was at least a consideration and a pretty important one as well.

Just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they never tried.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That is a fair preference but understand that is what it is: a preference.

Let me just go ahead and provoke the firestorm. I have no idea what your experience is, so I can only take it at your word that you have enjoyed random character generation in the instances you've experienced it. Great.

But in 30 years of gaming I've met tons of players that claimed that they actually like randomness. In that same period I've met zero players that actually did. Every single one has in fact been the sort of person that likes randomness because the believe at some level that they'll never be on the short end of the stick, and when they are they howl and have invariably developed techniques for mitigating the randomness - did I mention howling?

The situation is so bad that I would consider turning down any player that wanted to join my table who claimed to prefer random character generation on those grounds alone. It would be a huge red flag. What I've actually seen in play:

a) Player prefers random character generation.... This is because the player is a habitual cheater, and by using 'random' character generation as a pretense, he can play characters which would otherwise never be approved - there by drawing disproportionate spot light to themselves.

b) Player prefers random character generation... This is because the player primarily role plays in order to impose his will on his fellow players. This is the kick that he gets out of playing, and by having disproportionate resources during character gen, he has more opportunities to bully the other PCs.

c) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But in practice this is only true if the results produce something he considers acceptable, usually an above average character with perhaps at most one minor flaw. If the random results produce something truly below average, he'll find a way to keep repeating character generation until he gets the results he actually wants. These techniques will include whining to the DM about the unfairness of what he claimed to enjoy until the DM relents and lets him make another character or reroll select results. Alternately, the DM holds his ground, he starts having his PC's commit suicide until he eventually gets a player he's more into. This can be literally, "I fall on my sword.", six times in a row until he has an above average character. This sort of thing led to the observation that although you can have random character generation, what you can't do is make the player play a character he ultimately doesn't want to play. And note, it only takes ONE player like this in the group, before everyone else in the group starts reflecting on their own character and how functional in game terms the players social behavior actually is. Why should that player get a better character than me solely because he was being rude? It's a nightmare situation as a GM.

d) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But only if rules are adopted that mitigate randomness to such a high degree that the results are predictable. For example, for D&D using the Unearthed Arcana table meant to generate high level NPCs or straight up, "Roll 7d6 take the best three, rearrange stats to taste."

e) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But it turns out that the player has only played with GMs that use kid gloves and continually fudge on the player's behalf so that regardless of what is on their sheet, they are likely to succeed in virtually every endeavor anyway.

f) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But player is almost always exclusively the GM, and as such, really has no personal concerns with PC balance. In fact, often the player likes weak PC's because that means his share of the story is correspondingly greater.

g) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But this is because player in fact doesn't play his character. Instead, the player is accustomed to playing a highly metagame where the fun is being disruptive, goofing off, subverting play, telling jokes, causing trouble, and generally enjoying himself by being the joker or jester. He has adopted methods of drawing spotlight to himself that don't at all depend on the rules. As such, he doesn't really care what is on his sheet, and if what is on his sheet is below average in ability then even better because it gives him an excuse for acting out the way that he wants to. Usually this player has learned that the GM will run the game in such a way that he never has to accept consequences from his actions and his protagonist status (and the other PCs) protects him from being removed from play. So who cares what the mechanics are, right?

For us the method is great in a game like Runequest.

Glad to hear it. Don't actually believe it; but if it is true, well it's good that someone is getting something valuable out of it. Frankly though, when I hear a statement like, "we want disparity in play but we want it controlled and distributed fairly", my thought is, "How in the heck does that work?" That's such a blatantly contradictory statement that I find it impossible to believe its made in full self-awareness. How in the heck is arbitrary and capricious somehow morphed into "controlled" and "fair" in your vocabulary? Logically, if it ways more than a duck, "it's a fair cop?"

I don't deny that it would be possible to create a random chargen system that did distribute spotlight equally, but I've never seen it in practice. Runequest in particular clearly belongs to the fantasy heartbreaker genera, and pretty clearly doesn't distribute spotlight equally. (Although in practice, the distribution range is probably smaller than it is in some games like WFRP.) If you enjoyed it, it's probably because that never became a problem in actual play. One nice thing about PnP RPGs is that they have plenty of ways to mitigate the problems with balance through direct GM management of the situation, player settable goals of play, and social contract. It's also important to note that in shorter periods of play, balance disparities tend to be less important. So yeah, it's possible to enjoy a highly unbalanced PnP RPG, but I would be highly mindful and reflective about why.
 

Janx

Hero
We always use 4d6, keep the best 3. Its worked for us. haven't seen too many suicides. Though there is that one guy who always rolls bad, though he's more of a goof off than suicider.

One idea I had for D&D was roll and generate 2 attributes from one result. Something like 3d6, and the second attribute was equal to 21 - the roll result. Thus, if you rolled an 18, you'd end up with an 18 and a 3 for stats.

Or some variant math of that idea. It would end up that a guy who rolled well would end up with built-in counter-balances.

What I liked out of random generation was that your next PC was inherently different from the last. In point-buy, it was too easy to just sling out Bob 3 when Bob 2 died who had the exact same build-out as Bob 1, just reset back to the beginning.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But if me, Jane, and Robert are playing and we all agree we like this method, it enhances play, and produces results we regard as fair....what is the issue? Why bring justice into it?

The issue is that humans are usually *bad* at judging longer term risks and issues, and we should acknowledge that. What seems reasonable intellectually at the time the campaign started may not seem all that great a year later, when you realize that it isn't really all that fun. Social contract says she agreed, but she's not satisfied. Now she has to have the uncomfortable discussions, and might possibly screw up the game for everyone.

Remember that we are talking about design, not table-execution. What you choose to do at your table is your own business, of course. But if you are writing a game, don't you want to eliminate obvious ways for folks to shoot themselves in the foot? I know you say you like this, but how often is it really a bug, not a feature?

I want fun and excitement at the table and I don't want "win buttons" but sometimes I want interesting and unexpected results.

There are results and results - the timescale and level of commitment required by the player matter. An unexpected result in a combat here or there is one thing, and an unexpected result that you may have to live with for years of gameplay is another.

If Jane gets an Uber power because she rolled well, my attitude is I am happy for Jane and see it as a boon to the party.

Yeah, well, that attitude doesn't seem all that prevalent. And I've seen folks espouse it in theory, but in practice they still gripe about how they dont' get to do the cool stuff, 'cause the uber-character does it all....


That is a fair preference but understand that is what it is: a preference. Parity in play matters to you.

Not as much as you might think. I *loved* the FASERIP Marvel Superheroes game, though it often didn't have parity in play. This isn't about what I, personally, like or don't like.

I'm thinking of this in terms of best practices in design, stepping beyond personal preferences, and thinking about what's better, broadly speaking, for games.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I don't deny that it would be possible to create a random chargen system that did distribute spotlight equally, but I've never seen it in practice.

Well, context matters. Take, for example, Something like D&D "basic" play. You have the classic four characters - fighter, wizard, thief, cleric.

To a significant extent, random stat rolling isn't as big an issue, because spotlight is managed through class/role as much or more than by the stats. It doesn't matter as much if the thief has weak stats - he's still the only one who can accomplish some tasks, or make use of some tactics, that will manage much of the spotlight distribution just so long as the GM gives a varied adventure environment.

In games where you don't have niche protection, or you have a party that is overlapping niches or roles, you don't get this benefit, obviously.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
We always use 4d6, keep the best 3. Its worked for us.


Well, 4d6, drop lowest, is intentionally skewed so that you are apt to make a character that is nominally effective. The other character may be better in many ways, but you are apt to at least be competent, and there's still an upper cap on how good the other character will be (assuming no min-maxers, who can often make killers even with mediocre stats). From random stats alone, you're probably not looking at Superman vs Jimmy Olsen, here.
 

Janx

Hero
Well, 4d6, drop lowest, is intentionally skewed so that you are apt to make a character that is nominally effective. The other character may be better in many ways, but you are apt to at least be competent, and there's still an upper cap on how good the other character will be (assuming no min-maxers, who can often make killers even with mediocre stats). From random stats alone, you're probably not looking at Superman vs Jimmy Olsen, here.

I did the math a long time ago and it moves the average from 3d6's 10.5 to about 12.something. I wrote a program to compute it on a Compaq hand held running Windows CE 2.0. good times.

It was my impression that few people played D&D with straight 3d6, as it was just too swingy. Except for really die-hard old-timers.


My point was really to Celebrim's that nobody actually likes random generation. It's been working for us for over 20 years. I don't hear that much complaining really.
 

Let me just go ahead and provoke the firestorm. I have no idea what your experience is, so I can only take it at your word that you have enjoyed random character generation in the instances you've experienced it. Great.

I appreciate we have different experience here. All I can say is I honestly prefer random generation like this and I know others who do.


Glad to hear it. Don't actually believe it; but if it is true, well it's good that someone is getting something valuable out of it. Frankly though, when I hear a statement like, "we want disparity in play but we want it controlled and distributed fairly", my thought is, "How in the heck does that work?" That's such a blatantly contradictory statement that I find it impossible to believe its made in full self-awareness. How in the heck is arbitrary and capricious somehow morphed into "controlled" and "fair" in your vocabulary? Logically, if it ways more than a duck, "it's a fair cop?"

I don't see why this is so difficult to believe. These methods have been around for along time and there are folks who prefer games like Runequest, Traveller and versions of HARN, which employ this sort of built in randomness to keep acquisition of disparate abilities either fair or measured in some way (say against the increasing risk of bad things occurring). I don't see this as contradictory at all. I do like some disparity in play because it creates a more textured experience for me. But I want some amount of fairness there. I don't want it to be the guy who knows how to put a build together always makes the best character. By randomizing it, you always have a shot at getting these exceptional abilities.

And because you brought it up, I don't whine or complain when I get a bad result. I am obviously hoping for a better result. That is part of the excitement of it, but I know the probabilities at work. I find that fun and enjoyable. If others don't that is entirely fine. I've already said this isn't an approach suited to a game like D&D anymore given its mass appeal. I recognize this is minority viewpoint. But surely there can be a place for it in the hobby?
 

The issue is that humans are usually *bad* at judging longer term risks and issues, and we should acknowledge that. What seems reasonable intellectually at the time the campaign started may not seem all that great a year later, when you realize that it isn't really all that fun. Social contract says she agreed, but she's not satisfied. Now she has to have the uncomfortable discussions, and might possibly screw up the game for everyone.

Obviously people shouldn't be forced to do anything they are not comfortable with. I may agree to play ten games of Hungry Hungry Hippo, then realize I HATE it by the second game and ask to stop. That doesn't mean the creators of HHH are wrong to make that game, because it might come up that someone suddenly decides midway through that they hate it. It is the same with this. If I get a group together to play Traveller, we all understand going in what that entails. Now if someone really has a problem with that once we start, of course we are not going to be jerks and we are going to work out a solution to keep everybody happy. But that is a social issue for the group to negotiate. I don't think designers have an obligation to make sure people work out their expectations and get along.

Remember that we are talking about design, not table-execution. What you choose to do at your table is your own business, of course. But if you are writing a game, don't you want to eliminate obvious ways for folks to shoot themselves in the foot? I know you say you like this, but how often is it really a bug, not a feature?

It depends entirely on the game and my audience. If I am making a game and I know my audience is largely folks who are okay with the possibility of shooting yourself in the foot through character creation, I don't think I have an obligation to build in protections for people who are against that. I am not saying every game, or the most played game like D&D, should do things like this. I am saying there are people who enjoy this and saying we can't ever design games this way for them is misguided. There is nothing wrong with knowing your audience is okay with a particular method of balance and designing toward that. By the same token there is nothing wrong with knowing what you like personally and making a game that meets that. Now this does mean your audience might be more limited. If we are doing the random thing, that doesn't have super broad appeal.
 

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