Choosing sorcerer spells

[atomn]

I've never played a sorcerer before but I wanted to make a Force based sorcerer that would go into the Argent Savant and Force Missle Mage PrCs. Since the focus is Force spells I want to take lots of them but I don't want to end up taking too many and make the character less effective over all. So...

1. Should a specialized character take lots/most of their spells in their specialty? (For the example above, should I mainly take Force spells or should I rely on some favorites but have other useful spells in my arsenal?)

2. For a more well-rounded character who is still specialized, do you have a rule to follow on number of spells known from your specialty vs. other helpful spells (ex: 50% specialty spells and 50% other utility spells)? If yes, what is it?

Thanks for the insight!!

 

[pawsplay]

1. That's a matter of taste.
2. Yes. It's not a simple equation.

For a 1st level character, I always know one of mage armor, magic missile, sleep, or shield. It's not a bad idea to know two of those.

In general, I take the first spell of each level in my specialty, and the rest according to general usefulness. Sometimes specific concerns take precedence; for instance, haste may be more valuable than other 3rd spells within my theme.

There are three classes of spells that deserve special consideration. Those are summonings/calling, portmaneau spells, and basic vanilla spells.

Summon and call spells are extremely useful for sorcerers because summoned creatures have a variety of abilities. Fighting a troll? Summon a fire elemental. Attacked by fliers? Summon your own. Can't get past a special door? Call a powerful outsider with a useful spell-like ability. Because you summon from a list, knowing such a spell is like knowing several spells.

Portmanteau spells are spells that do more than one thing. The prime example is shadow conjuration, which allows you to cast a huge number of conjurations. Sure, it eats up a higher slot and allows will saves, but it's one spell that could be any of a number of other spells. You never know when you'll suddenly, desperately, need a grease spell or a summoned creature with poison or a wall of ... something. Otiluke's freezing sphere is another good example. A less obvious example is gate, which in a pinch can be used to attack someone, escape, acquire an ally, or imprison someone.

Basic vanilla spells include everything that is just really useful, like haste, magic missile, dispel magic, and so forth. This includes virtually all damage dealing spells. Do NOT take lots of damage dealing spells; take the minimum you can get by on and damage creatures of various power levels.

My general procedure:
1. At each new spell level, take one in your theme, unless the choices of that level stink.
2. Second, if you didn't take a vanilla spell last spell level, take one this time. This particularly includes attack spells. If you took scorching ray, don't take fireball, but conversely, if you haven't had an attack spell since magic missile, take an attack spell.
3. Take the summon monster spell of that level, unless you took one last level
4. Take spells that you like that you anticipate casting on an occasional basis (use scrolls and wands for spells used rarely).
5. Take more spells within your chosen theme.

 

[Draxo]

Force is one of those effects that works on just about everything. If your PrC has a prequisite number of force spells, take them. Otherwise.. it pays to be diverse. You'll always have your favorite spells, but it pays to be able to handle other situations. I find force to be weak vs crowds though, so another direct damage or two helps.

I just rolled up my own first sorceror and got a lot of help from some folk, heres what i was told

If you can get away with it, take the mininum force effects, and empower spell and rapid metamagic. Then lets say you take magic missile and orb of force. Those two spells just became four with your metamagic feat, one thats always useful to have. Wall of force.. its always useful to have a wall, theres another one and it fits your concept. Take any other spells you want for flavor. Then look at the following:

Protections / enhancements
Crowd control
a reflex save
a fortitude save
a will save.

You dont need too many of each.. even if just one. You already have a single crowd control with your wall of force. I would advise taking web as your second spell, its a useful spell for crowd control, and can even possibly tie up a whole group of enemies.

Will save.. theres lots of these and they come in different flavors, single and multiple. I hear a lot of people saying to take fear or confusion.. they're good spells, but i never could get past the negative of fear: if the enemy runs further into the dungeon/castle/whatever, they may come back with friends. I passed it by. Confusion is also great, but what if that nasty enemy rolls on the 'come beat your brains out' percentage? I also passed it by.. along with fear they're bursts, so it also cant be cast into mellee unless carefully. I took slow: the targets are controllable and the enemy can only take a move or standard action, if i remember right.

I would also advise taking a single target will save spell: a hold spell is a good choice.

Fortitude save is tricky, theres a lot of good options, most single target, take whichever fits your concept, most are game winners on a failed save: baleful polymorph, even blindness or bestow curse can render an enemy ineffective.

Reflex save: These tend to be the most famous spells, usually direct damage. I say skip things like fireball in favor of chain lightning later on, earlier a lightning bolt or fireball is useful to have. if you're dungeon crawling i find lightning bolt more useful: can be carefully cast around your friends in a room and its king of corridor battles.

Also reflex crowd control: web.

Protections / Enhancements.
Some fit into your concept: mage armor is something most mages take. Makes you less squishy and if you have a monk in your party they'll love you for it. Also good for light armored rogues.
invisibility: even when you have improved version, its worth taking.
Haste: i find it better than 3rd level damage spells.. its mass spell now, probably the first thing to cast in combat if you can help it.
Fly: Escape / travel / combat very useful.

Eh.. i'm sure you're not as new to arcane as i was, i wont talk your head off with this any more

As a Sorcerer, you'l be spoilt and stuck for 3rd level spells above all i find. Ive even considered taking 3rd level spells over some higher level ones since theres so many nice 3rd level spells.

Anyway.. take at least one spell for each saving throw and a crowd control spell like web. One wall (probably force for you), and some protections for yourself. You'll eventually be able to pick some more flavor spells. Metamagic lets you diversify the spells you have.

 

[amethal]

Don't forget you can change a few of your spells later if you want to. Sleep, for instance, might be a good one to get rid of at higher levels.

I've just got Magic Items Compendium, and the runestaffs in there look like a great toy for a sorcerer. Effectively gives you a few extra spells known, albeit ones that you can only cast a few times a day (usually 3).

 

[pawsplay]

I find force to be weak vs crowds though, so another direct damage or two helps.

Force missiles (SC) helps a lot in this regard.

 

[pawsplay]

As a Sorcerer, you'l be spoilt and stuck for 3rd level spells above all i find. Ive even considered taking 3rd level spells over some higher level ones since theres so many nice 3rd level spells.

Once you reach 8th level, Extra Spell starts becoming an increasingly tempting Feat.

 

[Thanee]

Specialty Spells: maybe 20%, not more
Utility Spells: lots, especially versatile ones

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

As a Sorcerer, you'l be spoilt and stuck for 3rd level spells above all i find. Ive even considered taking 3rd level spells over some higher level ones since theres so many nice 3rd level spells.

I find 2nd and especially 4th level much harder to decide, actually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[atomn]

Thanks for the great advice, all! It's going to make choosing a bunch easier!

 

[jensun]

I've never played a sorcerer before but I wanted to make a Force based sorcerer that would go into the Argent Savant and Force Missle Mage PrCs. Since the focus is Force spells I want to take lots of them but I don't want to end up taking too many and make the character less effective over all. So...

1. Should a specialized character take lots/most of their spells in their specialty? (For the example above, should I mainly take Force spells or should I rely on some favorites but have other useful spells in my arsenal?)

2. For a more well-rounded character who is still specialized, do you have a rule to follow on number of spells known from your specialty vs. other helpful spells (ex: 50% specialty spells and 50% other utility spells)? If yes, what is it?

Thanks for the insight!!

While I understand the attraction of running a themed sorceror and it is something I have done before in general I couldnt recommend doing it.

The number of spells known will really punish someone who takes multiple different spells which all do fairly similar things. If you are happy doing that then go for it but recognise that your flexibility is going to go down the pan.

Having said that the suggestions here are very good. I would suggest that you try and avoid doubling up on what spells do.

For example, Wal of Force and Forceage do much the same thing. Both are excellent for a sorceror but I would struggle to justify having both. Similarly Orb of Force isnt a bad direct damage spell but having Magic Missile as well isnt worth it.