TLDR: WotC said the quite part out loud, caster rule and noncasters drool
Okay, so there are a series of interviews (I think each has it's own thread) and part of one of them Chris Perkins says "a lot of high level spells could just be renamed shenanigan's" (I may not have exact wording right) but then goes on to say that is what makes D&D what it is, when the players pull some shenanigans and change everything...
Now the two go on to talk about the interviewers wife useing a magic item (and I think any class could have) and throwing the DM for a loop. While over the last (Don't make me count) years, I have at least 2 dozen stories that I can tell about characters doing things like that... things that blew me away as a DM.
In one such case I literally had a 11th level party kill a Divine rank 30 mindflayer god in a surprise round, and I argued I could free action say something before I died... so I chose "I just want to go on record as saying this is bull naughty word, this was my plan" then he died...
So I went back through my head how many of these were level 10+ (about 2/3 of the ones I could think of) how many were epic level (21+ and not many only 2 one in 4e one in 2e) So then I started thinking how many where item/rp/anyone could do and it was a few (including the above example of the god death, and a fighter picking up and suplexing the tarrasque in 3.5) but almost all of them involved spells. SO I asked last night my tuesday night group to make a list with me after game... and so we did.
we stopped at 32 times we could more or less esialy remember, then we went back and through them to see how many where arcane spells cast... 22. of the 10 left 3 were divine/primal-nature spells (some of the 22 were on both divine and arcane list though) leaving 7 that were not 2 of those used psychic abilities (in 3e+ that is easy to gage level but in 2e the system just wasn't level based) and 5 were things done by (or could be done by because 1 is still a warlock story and 1 is still a wizard story just without spells...that tent still bugs me)
So I asked everyone to think about it. Saturday some of us (and a couple others) get together. I will see what we get for different answers. I did wake up this morning to 2 other "OMG" moments texted to me by becky and both were 2e fighter moments we didn't think of last night (so up to 34 7 of them didn't need magic at all)
To be fair we didn't count some things. the first time anyone used a "once per day when you die" epic destiny power we all remember from Ross's first warlord we didn't count becuse as cool as it was at the moment we all had uses of those abilities and it only stands out as everyone being like "WTF," but we got used to it. (so that was martial) and 3 different dumb jokes we make that have stuck from campaign to campaign (I do push ups for insight) because we didn't think just being memorable was enough it had to be a positive impact AND remember able.
We did also discount a lucky bard set of attacks from 2e that kind sorta didn't need magic but kinda did and was house ruled (a bard that was made useing skills and powers so he could specialize in daggers who had been gifted by the good of speed a semi permanent haste. He made 5 or 6 attacks we couldn't remember the exact number with his +5 knife and his +3 dagger. He dropped on teh table his dice for his attack and 3 of them landed on 20... while dominated by a bad guy and hitting the mage/thief(me) and me jaw dropped saying "3 twenties what are the odds" and I survived with single digit hp, but by the next turn he was still dominated and he dropped the dice this time in the dead center of the table and 3 came up 20 to my now dead character and all I could say was "Ow come on 3 twenties again?!?"
if we added those we would have 36 (so slightly more then 1 per year) 9 of witch martial characters could do...
this is my problem. wizards have A LOT of easier ways to say "Hey lets change the game real quick" in general caster do over non casters...
and remember this isn't counting all of the (humdrum just what casters do) times we saw teleport, on a spell negate a hit, or flight superseding encounters, or even just knock making the rouge ask why he put points in open locks. This isn't counting all of the healing, the ressurecting, the divination, the SoDs that ended encounters...
also brought up was a phrase (like I do a push up for insight) that started in 3e in a campaign I played in "It's the ______ show and the rest of us are side characters" it started when we had the most powerful (by this i mean well played) 3e wizard we had seen yet. If we use the phrase it has almost always been for arcane caster (although honorable mention to the time my cleric took leadership in 3.5 and we had just made an alliance with druids, I made a quick druid character pick spells without really reading up on them... then 2 or 3 fights in was a fight we were ready to run from 3 bigg giants, my cohot and his animal companion soloed 1, then split up to help the rest of us with the other 2... needless to say I traded out leadership becuse it was about to become the druid show by mistake)
High level spellcasters have TOO MANY ups over high level martial characters. Heck middle level (7-10) full casters have more game changing abilities then most epic level martial characters. and WotC just admitted it.
Okay, so there are a series of interviews (I think each has it's own thread) and part of one of them Chris Perkins says "a lot of high level spells could just be renamed shenanigan's" (I may not have exact wording right) but then goes on to say that is what makes D&D what it is, when the players pull some shenanigans and change everything...
Now the two go on to talk about the interviewers wife useing a magic item (and I think any class could have) and throwing the DM for a loop. While over the last (Don't make me count) years, I have at least 2 dozen stories that I can tell about characters doing things like that... things that blew me away as a DM.
In one such case I literally had a 11th level party kill a Divine rank 30 mindflayer god in a surprise round, and I argued I could free action say something before I died... so I chose "I just want to go on record as saying this is bull naughty word, this was my plan" then he died...
So I went back through my head how many of these were level 10+ (about 2/3 of the ones I could think of) how many were epic level (21+ and not many only 2 one in 4e one in 2e) So then I started thinking how many where item/rp/anyone could do and it was a few (including the above example of the god death, and a fighter picking up and suplexing the tarrasque in 3.5) but almost all of them involved spells. SO I asked last night my tuesday night group to make a list with me after game... and so we did.
we stopped at 32 times we could more or less esialy remember, then we went back and through them to see how many where arcane spells cast... 22. of the 10 left 3 were divine/primal-nature spells (some of the 22 were on both divine and arcane list though) leaving 7 that were not 2 of those used psychic abilities (in 3e+ that is easy to gage level but in 2e the system just wasn't level based) and 5 were things done by (or could be done by because 1 is still a warlock story and 1 is still a wizard story just without spells...that tent still bugs me)
So I asked everyone to think about it. Saturday some of us (and a couple others) get together. I will see what we get for different answers. I did wake up this morning to 2 other "OMG" moments texted to me by becky and both were 2e fighter moments we didn't think of last night (so up to 34 7 of them didn't need magic at all)
To be fair we didn't count some things. the first time anyone used a "once per day when you die" epic destiny power we all remember from Ross's first warlord we didn't count becuse as cool as it was at the moment we all had uses of those abilities and it only stands out as everyone being like "WTF," but we got used to it. (so that was martial) and 3 different dumb jokes we make that have stuck from campaign to campaign (I do push ups for insight) because we didn't think just being memorable was enough it had to be a positive impact AND remember able.
We did also discount a lucky bard set of attacks from 2e that kind sorta didn't need magic but kinda did and was house ruled (a bard that was made useing skills and powers so he could specialize in daggers who had been gifted by the good of speed a semi permanent haste. He made 5 or 6 attacks we couldn't remember the exact number with his +5 knife and his +3 dagger. He dropped on teh table his dice for his attack and 3 of them landed on 20... while dominated by a bad guy and hitting the mage/thief(me) and me jaw dropped saying "3 twenties what are the odds" and I survived with single digit hp, but by the next turn he was still dominated and he dropped the dice this time in the dead center of the table and 3 came up 20 to my now dead character and all I could say was "Ow come on 3 twenties again?!?"
if we added those we would have 36 (so slightly more then 1 per year) 9 of witch martial characters could do...
this is my problem. wizards have A LOT of easier ways to say "Hey lets change the game real quick" in general caster do over non casters...
and remember this isn't counting all of the (humdrum just what casters do) times we saw teleport, on a spell negate a hit, or flight superseding encounters, or even just knock making the rouge ask why he put points in open locks. This isn't counting all of the healing, the ressurecting, the divination, the SoDs that ended encounters...
also brought up was a phrase (like I do a push up for insight) that started in 3e in a campaign I played in "It's the ______ show and the rest of us are side characters" it started when we had the most powerful (by this i mean well played) 3e wizard we had seen yet. If we use the phrase it has almost always been for arcane caster (although honorable mention to the time my cleric took leadership in 3.5 and we had just made an alliance with druids, I made a quick druid character pick spells without really reading up on them... then 2 or 3 fights in was a fight we were ready to run from 3 bigg giants, my cohot and his animal companion soloed 1, then split up to help the rest of us with the other 2... needless to say I traded out leadership becuse it was about to become the druid show by mistake)
High level spellcasters have TOO MANY ups over high level martial characters. Heck middle level (7-10) full casters have more game changing abilities then most epic level martial characters. and WotC just admitted it.
