Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Sadras]

More saying that you seem to misunderstand what people are saying.

That is your opinion.

Not all politicians are the same, but that is another matter.

True. Nelson Mandela was exceptional and I did like USA's presidential candidate Ron Paul, pity he wasnt given the opportunity. And if the stories I've heard of JFK are to be believed (before my time) - then he too seemed destined for inspiring worthwhile changes.

To go back to my question, what do you suggest should be done to resolve the problem?

Simple really, for people in power be held accountable for their actions and when I mean held accountable - I mean prosecuted if they are deemed to be guilty by an independent organisation and pay for their crimes.
Especially in instances when the current president claims not to have known or authorised the 16+ million dollars worth of security upgrades that were done at his home; and when the official in charge of the upgrades explains that the installation of the pool which was part of the 'security upgrades' is actually a 'fire-pool' in the case of fires...

And the above is just the tip of the iceberg...

But yeah, reserve your condemnation cause that makes sense.

 

[Ryujin]

Revenge sure, but being part of a struggle for liberation and when finally realising it, stealing from your very people that helped put you in power. No. That is just plain greed - which of course you can argue is also a natural desire

There are always opportunists.

 

[Kramodlog]

That is your opinion.

Not that you're offering counter arguments.

Simple really, for people in power be held accountable for their actions and when I mean held accountable - I mean prosecuted if they are deemed to be guilty by an independent organisation and pay for their crimes.
Especially in instances when the current president claims not to have known or authorised the 16+ million dollars worth of security upgrades that were done at his home; and when the official in charge of the upgrades explains that the installation of the pool which was part of the 'security upgrades' is actually a 'fire-pool' in the case of fires...

And the above is just the tip of the iceberg...

But yeah, reserve your condemnation cause that makes sense.

In this post you seem to be saying that the problems are more than just the accountability of the president.

They have people in the highest positions of power, who control the lives of the people they 'serve', who have neither been educated, nor do they have the experience. The current president has not even finished school. At what do we say, "Yup, we need one of the least educated to run a country."

Schooling has been dumbed down and instead of attempting to follow the education of the better countries, instead the country is adopting policies and curriculums of failed and poorly thought out systems. Recently they had university students throwing their excrement at old statues - and these students were acquitted of wrong doing. These are the bright minds we have to look forward to.

[...]

Then you have native Africans on non-native African clashes - were locals become jealous of the non-natives' success or ingenuity and either threaten/harm/kill the immigrants and/or destroy their properties.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...stians/page3&p=6685226&viewfull=1#post6685226

What do you propose for those?

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

I do not agree with that assessment and sounds like it is going down a path of horrible excuses .

you may have misunderstood my point. It's not an excuse for the things these people are doing. It's a reason why these particular people act in that manner. The point being, they are a product of a system designed to get them to act this way. apartheid education made it so that even amongst each other, the various groups that make up the non-white populations would distrust each other, be less likely to find economic stability due to lower education, believe they were lesser than the whites running the country, and generally be made to feel like children that required whites to help them survive like a parent does a child. Apartheid education succeeded in its goals. These people running the country, and the ones that voted for them are a product of that educational system. Basically, I'm just saying you shouldn't be surprised tat this is happening.

Here is a quote from Nelson Mandela, a person that even the illiterate admire "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world."

Oh, I completely agree with Mandela. Hell, I'm pretty sure that Hendrik Verwoerd would agree with Mandela. Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world. Verwoerd and the others responsible for apartheid used education as a weapon and significantly changed the world. They used apartheid education efficiently and effectively to brutalize non-whites. Say what you want about these men, but they were intelligent enough to realize the same thing that Mandela did. Education is a weapon. It is a devastating weapon. In the right hands it can make the world a better place. In the wrong hands, it can cripple or destroy a people to the point hat recovery is not even assured.

You're mistaking greed for ignorance and it is common for those excusing all their current ills and crimes on Apartheid. It has become a joke in South Africa. No accountability whatsoever is what is eating at moral fibre of society, not just here - but everywhere.

I'd argue that there isn't much, if any, "moral fiber" to eat away in a society that implemented apartheid. It's difficult to say that it was made worse when it allowed for the dehumanization of other human beings.

We like to play the blame game - and if I were so inclined I would place it on Adam and he would in turn blame Eve and she would blame the serpent...and it would blame it on Apartheid.

I'd rather blame God. That guy is a jerk. He gives you all these wonderful toys, and then he punishes you for playing with them. I mean, imagine you mom or dad got you a new car then beat you within an inch of your life for daring to drive it. Also, he gave us Scientology. Unforgivable.

 

[Sadras]

Not that you're offering counter arguments.

Not willing to condemn those that are in the current seat of power and are greedy, especially in this country, for whatever reason is excusing them. You do not need an excuse like Apartheid to be greedy.

In this post you seem to be saying that the problems are more than just the accountability of the president.

My answer to you was specifically on the president, since the debate had filtered down to that at that point in the thread.

What do you propose for those?

Off the top of my head...

Well, for starters don't adopt failed or poor education policies in schools. Governmental schools require much more funding to operate effectively, teachers need to be better evaluated and reimbursed; textbooks must not be delivered late to students; exam papers need to be secure and not be "stolen/misplaced"; an African language should be compulsory at least for the lower-middle grades; too many schools are being closed down - increasing the number of kids per teacher - this needs to be addressed); evaluated the school curriculum for worth and relevance; ensure one summer sport and one winter sport is compulsory for kids (unless child is medically unfit) - this was done away with; bring back cadets - kids are lacking in discipline; bring back corporal punishment.

Ensure kids in school know how to open a bank account, use an ATM, operate a computer, register and complete their income tax affairs, enter into and understand a lease agreement, teach them the value of money, teach them about nature conservation, rules of the road, etiquette...etc Basically give them the knowledge and skills to function in the world, without punishing them later for ignorance.

There is a movement to change the face of the majority of the deans, lecturers/professors at certain universities from white to black within a few years. Movements to change the educators from one race to another in such a short space of time is poor foresight. Professors/Deans and the like require a certain number of years of service in the field to reach that level in order to gain the comparative knowledge and experience. It is a process and therefore removing many with the required experience in a brief period
could lead to a knowledge loss. Stupid racist policies such as this should be scrapped.

The defacing of statues should be a punishable offence, expulsion at the very least.

Rework the BBBEE to cater for the local South Africans of colour as opposed to any African of colour. There are more problems with the revised BBBEE policy as it stands but the technicalities of each field/category within the policy is beyond my scope of knowledge.
It is better left for the experts.

With regard to the xenophobic attacks - accountability would have helped.
Refer to this article about the xenophobic remarks the Zulu King made - which seems to have led to the death of several non-native Africans. http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/xenophobia-fuelled-by-nation-s-leaders-1.1904789#.Vdu-I3kw_IU

Presidents need to have a minimum level requirement of education.
Why do some trades and services require a certificate for finishing school, yet the highest post in the country is absent of this? It does not make any sense. There are plenty of black people with degrees and diplomas from universities and colleges.

Use the military to crack down on gangs and crime. We are not at war so our military is largely underused, despite sending some of the forces for peace-keeping missions in the rest of Africa.

Our criminals - use them to improve infrastructure - fix roads, water catch areas..etc

Do not give excessive performance bonuses to the top brass for those responsible for generation and distribution of electricity until they solve the shortage problem.

Accountability would certainly fix monies being 'stolen' and negligently spent at municipality and state level.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I just want to respond to this and this alone:

Use the military to crack down on gangs and crime. We are not at war so our military is largely underused, despite sending some of the forces for peace-keeping missions in the rest of Africa.

NOT a good idea.

While there is some overlap between military and police equipment and training, in all honesty, military personnel & tools are generally very bad for policing duties. Police get trained in a much wider variety of less-than-lethal techniques, equipment, and de-escalation strategies than do their military counterparts.

There's a reason why Iraqi museums got looted under the very noses of the Coalition forces in Desert Storm.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Back on point, an interesting article about aspects of progressive vs fundamentalist biblical interpretation, in the context of the American political climate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek...ible_b_8031106.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

 

[Kramodlog]

Not willing to condemn those that are in the current seat of power and are greedy, especially in this country, for whatever reason is excusing them. You do not need an excuse like Apartheid to be greedy.

Like I said, it isn't that there is no will to condemn, just that it is a situation that is complex and that condemnation won't solve the problems of South Africa.

My answer to you was specifically on the president, since the debate had filtered down to that at that point in the thread.

But even then, if lack of education is so problematic, what will prevent the next president from having a lack of education? The problem seems systemic.

On a side note, education can only go so far and intelligence is another thing. There is not always a correlation between the two. I'd say that being able to become president shows intelligence. At least social intelligence to a minimum, but I'd say more is required. A lot more. Judgement is another matter...

Off the top of my head...

Well, for starters don't adopt failed or poor education policies in schools. Governmental schools require much more funding to operate effectively, teachers need to be better evaluated and reimbursed; textbooks must not be delivered late to students; exam papers need to be secure and not be "stolen/misplaced"; an African language should be compulsory at least for the lower-middle grades; too many schools are being closed down - increasing the number of kids per teacher - this needs to be addressed); evaluated the school curriculum for worth and relevance; ensure one summer sport and one winter sport is compulsory for kids (unless child is medically unfit) - this was done away with; bring back cadets - kids are lacking in discipline; bring back corporal punishment.

Ensure kids in school know how to open a bank account, use an ATM, operate a computer, register and complete their income tax affairs, enter into and understand a lease agreement, teach them the value of money, teach them about nature conservation, rules of the road, etiquette...etc Basically give them the knowledge and skills to function in the world, without punishing them later for ignorance.

There is a movement to change the face of the majority of the deans, lecturers/professors at certain universities from white to black within a few years. Movements to change the educators from one race to another in such a short space of time is poor foresight. Professors/Deans and the like require a certain number of years of service in the field to reach that level in order to gain the comparative knowledge and experience. It is a process and therefore removing many with the required experience in a brief period
could lead to a knowledge loss. Stupid racist policies such as this should be scrapped.

The defacing of statues should be a punishable offence, expulsion at the very least.

Rework the BBBEE to cater for the local South Africans of colour as opposed to any African of colour. There are more problems with the revised BBBEE policy as it stands but the technicalities of each field/category within the policy is beyond my scope of knowledge.
It is better left for the experts.

With regard to the xenophobic attacks - accountability would have helped.
Refer to this article about the xenophobic remarks the Zulu King made - which seems to have led to the death of several non-native Africans. http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/xenophobia-fuelled-by-nation-s-leaders-1.1904789#.Vdu-I3kw_IU

Presidents need to have a minimum level requirement of education.
Why do some trades and services require a certificate for finishing school, yet the highest post in the country is absent of this? It does not make any sense. There are plenty of black people with degrees and diplomas from universities and colleges.

Use the military to crack down on gangs and crime. We are not at war so our military is largely underused, despite sending some of the forces for peace-keeping missions in the rest of Africa.

Our criminals - use them to improve infrastructure - fix roads, water catch areas..etc

Do not give excessive performance bonuses to the top brass for those responsible for generation and distribution of electricity until they solve the shortage problem.

Accountability would certainly fix monies being 'stolen' and negligently spent at municipality and state level.

Corporal punishment, the army doing some policing, severe punishement for vandalism, putting a filter in place that excludes some people from the presidency, using criminals (who would be mostly black) as c"heap labor", to use a euthemism. There is an authoritarian vibe here.

 

[Umbran]

True. Nelson Mandela was exceptional and I did like USA's presidential candidate Ron Paul, pity he wasnt given the opportunity.

Ron Paul, and his son Rand, have some ideas... that are somewhat divorced from reality. These guys are not the equivalent of a Mandela, or a Kennedy

Simple really, for people in power be held accountable for their actions and when I mean held accountable - I mean prosecuted if they are deemed to be guilty by an independent organisation and pay for their crimes.

Yes, now, find an "independent" organization within your own government structure that is not tainted or influenced by the same politics and/or corruption that you're trying to prosecute. Getting a fair trial in such a situation is extremely difficult.

In the US, we make it very difficult to prosecute a sitting President for a good reason - failure to make it difficult makes threat of prosecution a political tactic.

 

[Kramodlog]

Ron Paul, and his son Rand, have some ideas... that are somewhat divorced from reality. These guys are not the equivalent of a Mandela, or a Kennedy.

Not sure I'd put Kennedy on the same pedestal as Mandela. His assassination made him a martyr and thus virtuous, but what it mostly did is prevent him from governing, which would have led him to be far more open to critics.