We are starting a 10th level adventure and a player wants to do a special class with CL 3. His caracter must start at 10th and progreed slower than the other players or he should start at 7th and folow the table for CL 3? He says he'd be weaker if he starts behind, but I think the table is correct isnt that?
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CL Class
- Thread starter Tagore
- Start date
Artoomis
First Post
Fisrt, terminology. The term you should be using is ECL (Equivalent Character Level). It means the race is the equivalent of a 3rd level character, thus a 10th level character would be 3 "levels" of the race plus 7 levels of whatever class(es) he wanted.
After messing around with these a bit, we (in our group) decided to allow no ECL-adjusted races. They are a big mess, and generally not everyone in the group is totally pleased with the result.
edited.
After messing around with these a bit, we (in our group) decided to allow no ECL-adjusted races. They are a big mess, and generally not everyone in the group is totally pleased with the result.
edited.
Last edited:
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
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Last edited:
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Artoomis said:
Hey, don't worry. I saw the thread before you responded and decided I couldn't make heads or tails of the origional post, so I left it alone; I'm glad you decided to help & give good (IMO) advice: inexperienced DMs certainly, and even many experienced DMs, should leave ECL at 0.
Illuminae
First Post
CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE THREAD
Im going to make some clarifications on the question tagore posted, since Im the player, and he has misinterpretated somethings
Ok we made 10 lvl characters;
I made an elf Half Elemental of Air (from MotP) Fighter 10;
Comparing to the other Templates, I told him (Tagore) that it should be no more than an ECL +3 (+2 to all atributes, except STR, Air Domain Spells as spell-like abilities 1/day, gained through level, +1 natural armor, immune to air spells and effects *DUH*, thats far from the Half-Dragon, that im sure);
Then I told him that when dealing with ECl, we could create characters with ECL+Class Levels = Other party members w/ ECL +0 Races OR everyone with the same class levels, and eventually, the diferences between the characters would begin to show up anyway, and that the characters with ECL+n races would progress slower sometime later.
Then I asked him to let me be 10 lvl just like others, since we had already played once before this conversation took place, and an ECL +3 (like an Svirfneblin in the FRCS) wouldnt be a problem.
He kept telling me that he thought that i should be lvl 7, because he tought that it was the "right" way to do it.
I told him that theres was not a "right way" to do it. I just was asking him to let me do that because if i lost 3 lvls, I would not start the game with all the feats that made up my character concept, but the decision was his.
He let me then begin as fighter 9, so in would not be too far from the others in power and i would be just as pleased.
Anyway, i started this conversation about ECLs with him because I know hes not very good with the rules, albeit being a very fun dm to play with.
I got two questions:
Do you people think that we should use ECL+ races (up to +3) with same starting class levels as the ECL+0 races? Is there a problem with that?
What do you think that the ECL of a Half-Elemental should be?
PS: Im sleepy, so forgive me the bad writing, and i know that templates are not races, and im not confused about them, but im a very lazy typer and, then again, im sleepy...
thanks
Im going to make some clarifications on the question tagore posted, since Im the player, and he has misinterpretated somethings
Ok we made 10 lvl characters;
I made an elf Half Elemental of Air (from MotP) Fighter 10;
Comparing to the other Templates, I told him (Tagore) that it should be no more than an ECL +3 (+2 to all atributes, except STR, Air Domain Spells as spell-like abilities 1/day, gained through level, +1 natural armor, immune to air spells and effects *DUH*, thats far from the Half-Dragon, that im sure);
Then I told him that when dealing with ECl, we could create characters with ECL+Class Levels = Other party members w/ ECL +0 Races OR everyone with the same class levels, and eventually, the diferences between the characters would begin to show up anyway, and that the characters with ECL+n races would progress slower sometime later.
Then I asked him to let me be 10 lvl just like others, since we had already played once before this conversation took place, and an ECL +3 (like an Svirfneblin in the FRCS) wouldnt be a problem.
He kept telling me that he thought that i should be lvl 7, because he tought that it was the "right" way to do it.
I told him that theres was not a "right way" to do it. I just was asking him to let me do that because if i lost 3 lvls, I would not start the game with all the feats that made up my character concept, but the decision was his.
He let me then begin as fighter 9, so in would not be too far from the others in power and i would be just as pleased.
Anyway, i started this conversation about ECLs with him because I know hes not very good with the rules, albeit being a very fun dm to play with.
I got two questions:
Do you people think that we should use ECL+ races (up to +3) with same starting class levels as the ECL+0 races? Is there a problem with that?
What do you think that the ECL of a Half-Elemental should be?
PS: Im sleepy, so forgive me the bad writing, and i know that templates are not races, and im not confused about them, but im a very lazy typer and, then again, im sleepy...
thanks
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Re: CLARIFICATION ABOUT THE THREAD
The answers to your "two" questions: no; yes; +3.
I don't agree with your DM's decision to start you at level 9 - it should have been level 7. Be happy he gave you 2 levels too many.
Illuminae said:
The answers to your "two" questions: no; yes; +3.
I don't agree with your DM's decision to start you at level 9 - it should have been level 7. Be happy he gave you 2 levels too many.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
As usual, CRGreathouse has summed things up nicely. Allowing you to have a +3ECL race, while the others have +0ECL without any level adjustment basically means you get 3 levels of power while your companions get the shaft (tm). It's not balanced, and it's not fair to the other players.
As far as "I wouldn't get the feats to make my character concept" is concerned, I don't buy it. Every character concept starts out knowing nothing. PCs learn and grow into their eventual styles and strengths. They earn them. My own character concept of a rogue was a dancer-turned-martial artist. That didn't mean my PC had some right to start out at a higher level, just so I could take Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) right from the beginning. The PC learns, the PC grows, and eventually, the PC fulfills the concept you initially envisioned.
[/soapbox]
Your DM was right the very first time, when he thought you should be 7th-level. A Half-Elemental (a quite powerful template) is +3 ECL, and there is a problem with starting one PC off with full levels and a template.
As far as "I wouldn't get the feats to make my character concept" is concerned, I don't buy it. Every character concept starts out knowing nothing. PCs learn and grow into their eventual styles and strengths. They earn them. My own character concept of a rogue was a dancer-turned-martial artist. That didn't mean my PC had some right to start out at a higher level, just so I could take Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) right from the beginning. The PC learns, the PC grows, and eventually, the PC fulfills the concept you initially envisioned.
[/soapbox]
Your DM was right the very first time, when he thought you should be 7th-level. A Half-Elemental (a quite powerful template) is +3 ECL, and there is a problem with starting one PC off with full levels and a template.
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