clarification on sneak attack

[Gilwen]

It's unfortunate that the ability is called Sneak Attack because it implies the wrong things....it's more like a precise strike...it doesnt have to be to the back it can be placed anywhere. It represents striking vital areas for more damage and it has nothing to do with surprise or awareness of the creatures in question.

Bryan

Hi all,

I'm he DM in question on this thread. What the PC is trying to do is sneak attack whenever a monster is in melee with another PC. I would think that a monster when in combat is not going to loose sight of a thief that is trying to stab it in the back. What i allowed is that if the PC's hide check beat the monsters spot that the thief would get a sneak attack. But I don’t think that simply because the monster is engaged with another melee opponent that the thief gets a free sneak attack. I also know that there is an extraordinary ability that allows for that type of melee sneak attack. Any examples of play would be great as well.

LordAJ

 

[kreynolds]

it has nothing to do with surprise or awareness of the creatures in question.

Actually, it has everything to do with both of those. You are surprised during the first round of combat, meaning you have been caught unawares, meaning you are flat-footed until you act, thus you can be sneak attacked. Losing your Dex bonus to AC is representative of you not being fully aware, or your attentions are being divided into too many directions at once, such as when you're flanked.

The problem that some people have is that they tend to equate Sneak Attack with Back-Stab, the latter of which doesn't exist in 3rd edition because facing does not exist. Also, you could only back-stab once, whereas you can sneak attack as many times as you have attacks, provided that your target is vulnerable for each and every one of those attacks.

I do agree, however, that a sneak attack isn't always a sneak attack. Sometimes, it's more of a precise strike, such as when you are in melee and you're flanking, but it works the same either way.

 

[IceBear]

Hi all,

I'm he DM in question on this thread. What the PC is trying to do is sneak attack whenever a monster is in melee with another PC. I would think that a monster when in combat is not going to loose sight of a thief that is trying to stab it in the back. What i allowed is that if the PC's hide check beat the monsters spot that the thief would get a sneak attack. But I don’t think that simply because the monster is engaged with another melee opponent that the thief gets a free sneak attack. I also know that there is an extraordinary ability that allows for that type of melee sneak attack. Any examples of play would be great as well.

LordAJ

Hi LORDAJ, you might want to pick up "Song and Silence" as it has a section with a rogue attacking from hiding and then moving to rehide and thus get another round of sneak attacks from range.

Everyone has pointed out the only times a sneak attack would occur already, but if the rogue can somehow hide (in the situation given above I'd require a successful Bluff check to distract the monster and then a hide check - remember he can't hide in plain sight - for the rogue to rehide and then the next round he'd get sneak attacks.

The rogue does not get free sneak attacks with a missle weapon just because it's in melee with someone else. If the rogue wants to get multiple sneak attacks, he's going to have to get the monster to lose his Dex bonus or pull out a melee weapon and move into melee range.

IceBear

 

[shadowcaster007]

I just need one thing clarified.

If 2 fighters have somebody flanked and the rogue was 20 feet away would the rogue get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon? Does the loss of the dex bonus only apply to the 2 guys flanking?


1X2



R

 

[shadowcaster007]

Hi LORDAJ, you might want to pick up "Song and Silence" as it has a section with a rogue attacking from hiding and then moving to rehide and thus get another round of sneak attacks from range.



FYI:
Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least
10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack,
then immediately hide again as a move action . You suffer
a -20 circumstance penalty on your Hide check to
conceal yourself after the shot-

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

I just need one thing clarified.

If 2 fighters have somebody flanked and the rogue was 20 feet away would the rogue get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon? Does the loss of the dex bonus only apply to the 2 guys flanking?

No the rogue doesn't get a sneak attack

You don't lose your dex when you are flanked, it just means that if a rogue is one of the members flanking he gets to sneak attack.

And to answer the next question: No the rogue wouldn't get the sneak attack if he was in melee with the somebody and 2 other characters were flanking but the rogue isn't flanking. . whew!

 

[Zenon]

The target would not lose his Dex modifier to the rogue, so he would not be able to sneak attack him (PrC class or feat abilities not withstanding).

The rogue has to be one of the flankers (in melee) to get the sneak attack damage with melee weapons.

Example (X - blank square, R - rogue, F - fighter, M - monster):

XRX
FMF
XXX

The rogue in the above is not flanking the target, so he does not receive the ability to deal sneak attack damage. However, if everyone shuffled around to the following:

XXX
FMR
XXF

Then the rogue is an active flanker and receives sneak attack damage if he hits.

From the SRD:

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage. The extra damage is +1d6 at 1st level and an additional 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

 

[Zenon]

whew!

Dang, you beat me to it!

The Baron is correct.

 

[F5]

I just need one thing clarified.

If 2 fighters have somebody flanked and the rogue was 20 feet away would the rogue get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon? Does the loss of the dex bonus only apply to the 2 guys flanking?


1X2

R

No, because the fighters' victim in the example doesn't lose his dex bonus. A rogue gets to Sneak Attack if they flank the target OR if the target loses his dex bonus (for whatever reason). Flanking in itself doesn't negate the subject's dex bonus.
So, since there's no loss of dex bonus, and the rogue doesn't Threaten the target with his bow, no Sneak Attack.

{edit} Man, am I slow today...

 

[AuraSeer]

For me, the confusing part of all this was the way Flanking was described. Once I understood that, everything else seems to fall into place.

Flanking is really a condition that applies to the attacker. If two attackers threaten a target from opposite sides, then they "have flanking" on the target. You don't say that the target "is flanked", because if someone else comes in and attacks the same target, they don't get the benefit.

Example:
XXX
FTF
XRX

T is the target.
F are fighters.
R is the rogue.
In this picture, the two fighters have flanking on T, so they get +2 to their attack roll. However, R does not have flanking on T, because there's no ally opposite him. Therefore, R cannot sneak attack.

HTH.