Clarifying some rules from Psionics Unleashed/PF Core

[GregoryOatmeal]

I'm not the most rules-savy DM. Frankly I find it unbearable to sit down and read paragraphs of rules. Usually this works for me but in my current game I'm starting to feel like I need to bone up. I just started PF and don't own the core book, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc.

My Pathfinder game is comprised of level 5 PCs. Most have a low comprehension of the nuances of the rules which is just fantastic - ideal gamers honestly. The psion, however, owns every player supplement and easily knows more rules than the rest of us combined. Still some of these behaviors are starting to feel fishy. For example:

- The psion can teleport in and out of rules, away from monsters, and to higher ground at will. In one instance I gave him bonus damage from jumping and attacking from higher ground. Now he insists on teleporting above monsters and dropping down on them to do extra damage.
- The psion claims he can open planar portals (or something) to the astral plane. I said this would ruin the upcoming planescape campaign so he changed it to:
- His psion can lift with telekinesis 250 pounds per level and "juggle three NPCs". I happened to catch a glimpse of the 2E Psionics book and saw there that the psionicist could lift 3 pounds per point and got like 8 telekinesis points at level 5. I also couldn't find anything like that in the 3.5 SRD. Does 250 pounds per level seem just insane? I mean 1,250 pounds is like 30 strength. Is anything like that in the Psionics Unleashed supplement?
- He claims if he holds his glaive one square in front of him and monsters enter that square he gets an attack of opportunity. Is this actually a rule?? I researched it in the Pathfinder SRD/Core rulebook and couldn't find it.

What do you guys think? I don't really want to go toe-to-toe with him in rules-lawyer-fu but I may have to start stopping combat to read paragraphs of rules every time he claims something like that. Even then I'm sure the rule he's hiding from me that prevents him from being so overpowered is going to be like 5 paragraphs away from the paragraph he points me to. And he'll find a way to explain it and then treat me like the parent who said Christmas is cancelled.

All of the other players are starting to complain their characters are feeling useless even though they feel like they're on par for their level.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

- The psion can teleport in and out of rules, away from monsters, and to higher ground at will. In one instance I gave him bonus damage from jumping and attacking from higher ground. Now he insists on teleporting above monsters and dropping down on them to do extra damage.

At will? Where is he getting this ability? If it's a power, it should be costing him daily resources. If it's a psi-like ability from race it should have limited uses. Where did he get it from?
It sounds like you houseruled to his benefit and now he wants that all the time. In the rules, higher ground is only a +1 bonus on attack rolls, nothing more. And needto actually be on a surface/platform/mount that gives you height over the target to get it. Not just be higher than him, otherwise anyone that flies or is realy big would just get it all the time. It's an abstraction to represent the advantage of holding...higher ground. Something firm and stable to press against as you add the force of gravity to your blows...or something. Hell if I understand the rationale perfectly, either. But that's the rule.
My group DID houserule "falling attacks" for our own enjoyment. Basically, if you fall to the ground and whack an enemy on the way down, you take the falling damage, and add that same amount to the damage of your attack. You would also provoke an AoO for passing through the foe's threatened squares on the way down (unless you made the tumble check DC to avoid it), of course. A very risky, dangerous gambit that most often will end up hurting you more than the enemy, but there as an option for those that want it.

- The psion claims he can open planar portals (or something) to the astral plane. I said this would ruin the upcoming planescape campaign so he changed it to:

I'd need to read the powers list in PF, but he might be correct. Psionics in 3E had more limited planar abilities than casters, but were pretty good when it came to making portals to the astral plane.

- His psion can lift with telekinesis 250 pounds per level and "juggle three NPCs". I happened to catch a glimpse of the 2E Psionics book and saw there that the psionicist could lift 3 pounds per point and got like 8 telekinesis points at level 5. I also couldn't find anything like that in the 3.5 SRD. Does 250 pounds per level seem just insane? I mean 1,250 pounds is like 30 strength. Is anything like that in the Psionics Unleashed supplement?

Again, need to check the psionics PF rules. But in 3E and PF, the Telekinesis spell is limited to 25 pounds per CL, 1/10 the weight he's claiming. And other than the violent thrust application, which ends the spell the same round you cast it, you can only move one object/creature at a time with it. So his power sounds a tad out of line...

- He claims if he holds his glaive one square in front of him and monsters enter that square he gets an attack of opportunity. Is this actually a rule?? I researched it in the Pathfinder SRD/Core rulebook and couldn't find it.

Im not sure what you're saying, but in 3E and PF, you provoke an AoO for LEAVING a threatened square, not entering one. A glaive has 10 ft reach, so if an enemy has 5 ft reach, like a human, and he wasn't already 10 ft away (5 ft step does not provoke), in order to reach melee range he would have to leave that 10 ft radius the psion threatens and provoke an AoO. It's nice, but it's basically only one free attack normally. Once the shorter reach foe closes, the fight becomes a series of 5 ft stepping (he can't hit adjacent squares with the glaive, the foe can't attack at reach) and full attacking. And PF gives you a very, very nasty tool with which to screw him over when he tries to 5 ft step back: Step Up feat, which is so stupidly easy to qualify for, ANYONE could have it.
If you want to get even meaner, APG has expansions to that feat tree.

 

[paradox42]

First off, I'm not sure how you can claim to be running a PF game without even having the PF Core Rulebook on hand to check. Do you have the PDF or something? While I sympathize with the boredom coming from reading lots of rules text, the GM is supposed to be fairly rules-savvy under most circumstances- at the very least you'd need to be for arguing with rules-lawyer players (and munchkins, who usually masquerade as rules lawyers, but only when it benefits them- sounds like your psionics player is a munchkin).

I'm fairly familiar with the Psionics Unleashed rules, fortunately- my own world that I've been updating from 3.5 to PF features psionics heavily, and a player in the PF game I play in every week is running an Elan Psion (plus, he's a power-gamer type himself, and loved psionics under 3.5- so watching him gives me an excellent view of the loopholes in the rules as they stand).

The teleportation ability is specific to the Nomad, the specialist in the Psychoportation Discipline. It's a Discipline power the character gets at 2nd level. Rules text below:

Nomad’s Step (Su): At 2nd level, as long as you maintain psionic focus, as a standard action you may teleport to a location up to 15 feet away. You must have line of sight to the location and you can bring along possessions that amount to as much as a medium load. The distance increases by 5 feet every psion level thereafter.

So yes, he can teleport at will, short distances. It is a nice power- but the psionic focus is a potential achilles heel. Psionic focus is a state that a psion has to spend like a coin to activate certain abilities, particularly Metapsionic feats like Empower Power or Enlarge Power. If your Psion has any Metapsionic feats, watch him like a hawk to be sure he doesn't use a Metapsionic feat and then teleport using the Nomad Step (he has to spend a full-round action to regain psionic focus before he can teleport again). If he has the Psionic Meditation feat, then he can regain psionic focus as a move action, but he would have to have taken that feat at 5th level since it has 4 ranks in Autohypnosis as a prerequisite.

IME, munchkins love to abuse this aspect of the psionics rules with GMs who don't know the difference, and use their psionic focus in more situations than it should properly be available to them. Be sure you track the status of his carefully- because he can't teleport when he's not focused.

Also, Stream already hit the fact that the house-rule you made is being abused- fortunately, as GM you can change it. Just explain that your old ruling was an experiment, and it's not working out well in game, so now the rules are going back to the base.

As for the planar portals, he's making the power sound better than it is- the only thing (by the rules) that he could be talking about is the 3rd-level Nomad Discipline power Astral Caravan. It doesn't create a portal; what it does is create astral bodies which allow the manifester and the creatures touched to go through the plane as if using the Astral Projection spell. The trouble with Caravan is, it has a manifestation time of 1 hour, and the manifester can't just take anybody along- every creature he brings with for the trip has to be under the effect of the Astral Traveler power first. Now, he could in fact have that power also, and use it on the other PCs before using Caravan; however, Traveler also has a manifestation time of 1 hour, so what he's proposing to do there is spend 1 hour per non-psionic PC and then another hour after that to bring them all along- and during that time they have to hold hands the entire time or the potential caravan breaks.

Regarding the telekinesis, he is again engaging in "creative" interpretations of what the power actually says. If he's moving stuff with his mind, then the power he's using must be Telekinetic Force, which is also a 3rd-level power. That allows him to move an object weighing up to 250 pounds, not 250 pounds per level. And if he uses it to move a creature, the creature gets a Will save and Power Resistance against it. Now, the power does have an augment, which means he can spend more power points to activate it and get a better effect, but the augment is 25 extra pounds per extra power poijnt spent- and he has to spend above the power's base cost to get that. Since the power is a 3rd-level power, he has to spend 5 PP to manifest it at all, and that means he can't augment it because he's only 5th level (you're limited to spending no more than your current level on any one power manifestation). Now, he could have the Overchannel feat (most players interested in making seriously powerful psionic PCs do), but if he does, then that only lets him get one more PP in that power, and he takes 1d8 points of damage (that he can't block) if he uses that.

So, at 5th level, the best he can do is move up to 250 pounds, or up to 275 if and only if his character has the Overchannel feat and he takes 1d8 points of damage when he manifests the Telekinetic Force power. And spends the extra power point, too; don't forget to watch his PP expenditure.

Stream already noted the mistake with the way the glaive works, so I won't touch on that myself except to pile on and say he's correct.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

Thanks guys. This will really improve my game and balance things out.

At will? Where is he getting this ability? If it's a power, it should be costing him daily resources. If it's a psi-like ability from race it should have limited uses. Where did he get it from?

It sounds like a psi-ability. I haven't seen him run out of points yet. He's recently earned the title "Sir poofs-a-lot"

It sounds like you houseruled to his benefit and now he wants that all the time. In the rules, higher ground is only a +1 bonus on attack rolls, nothing more.

Yeah, that's better than my house rule. The original intent was inspired by my interest in integrating verticality into combat and page 42 of the 4E DMG - if a player does something cool it should get bonus damage (and if he fails that attack jumping from higher ground it's an OA). I'm realizing now these things tend to have consequences.

I'm going to add falling damage based on your idea. But he'll probably turn around with some "feather-fall" psionic ability or something.

Psionics in 3E had more limited planar abilities than casters, but were pretty good when it came to making portals to the astral plane.

I need to read more on the astral plane. Isn't this like an escape route from any plane any time the player wants?

Im not sure what you're saying, but in 3E and PF, you provoke an AoO for LEAVING a threatened square, not entering one.

He was saying you provoke when you move from 10 feet away from the enemy to 5 feet away from the enemy (both are threatened). I think it involved something about the monster diving through a window which he teleported behind - I don't really know.

(he can't hit adjacent squares with the glaive, the foe can't attack at reach)

Yeah, I found that on my own. When I read the rules I notice a lot of rules that he forgets to mention that severly nerf his character.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

First off, I'm not sure how you can claim to be running a PF game without even having the PF Core Rulebook on hand to check.

It's funny like that but it's not the first time. We ran PF because this player had the most books (he's the only one with PF player material - although I have the bestiaries). I'm now realizing why this was problematic...

While I sympathize with the boredom coming from reading lots of rules text, the GM is supposed to be fairly rules-savvy under most circumstances- at the very least you'd need to be for arguing with rules-lawyer players (and munchkins, who usually masquerade as rules lawyers, but only when it benefits them- sounds like your psionics player is a munchkin).

I suppose the DM should be the rules-savvy type when running PF. It just seems unrealistic that I buy UM, UC, APG, and the psionics book and digest all of the rules just for the purpose of keeping munchkins in check. I mean I really feel like I shouldn't have to verify a player is playing by the rules. The game runs on the honor system. Cheating really doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything. I know it's high-time I addressed these issues.

That allows him to move an object weighing up to 250 pounds, not 250 pounds per level.

That's quite the discrepancy...

don't forget to watch his PP expenditure.

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm never allowing psionics again. In the future we will be playing Castles and Crusades.

 

[Mad Hamish]

I'm not the most rules-savy DM. Frankly I find it unbearable to sit down and read paragraphs of rules. Usually this works for me but in my current game I'm starting to feel like I need to bone up. I just started PF and don't own the core book, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc.

I recommend that either you swap to a more rules-lite game or you do at least a reasonable read of the rules.
Buying the books is the best way but you can probably get by if you read the srd which has most of the core rulebook, APG, UC & UM

My Pathfinder game is comprised of level 5 PCs. Most have a low comprehension of the nuances of the rules which is just fantastic - ideal gamers honestly.

not really, if they don't understand the rules they're likely to be unaware of how things work and either gain unjustified benefits, not be able to see what their characters can actually do and get frustrated or get the party stuffed over because they miss options

The psion, however, owns every player supplement and easily knows more rules than the rest of us combined. Still some of these behaviors are starting to feel fishy. For example:

Looks marlin sized to me...

- The psion can teleport in and out of rules, away from monsters, and to higher ground at will. In one instance I gave him bonus damage from jumping and attacking from higher ground. Now he insists on teleporting above monsters and dropping down on them to do extra damage.

a) based on what paradox42 said the teleport is a standard action, if he's doing it he isn't able to attack...
(attacking is a standard action and you only have 1 standard action per round)
b) say that the bonus damage for attacking from above was a 1 off
c) if he's dropping down from enough height to get additional damage he'll take falling damage...

In an Earthdawn campaign I gave a character a bonus when he jumped out of a barrel and attacked somebody but if he'd started being carried around in a barrel he wouldn't have been getting it.

- The psion claims he can open planar portals (or something) to the astral plane. I said this would ruin the upcoming planescape campaign so he changed it to:

if you're doing a planar campaign you really do need to be able to cope with planar travel, especially seeing as the ability seems to be fairly limited (again based on what paradox42 said)

- His psion can lift with telekinesis 250 pounds per level and "juggle three NPCs". I happened to catch a glimpse of the 2E Psionics book and saw there that the psionicist could lift 3 pounds per point and got like 8 telekinesis points at level 5. I also couldn't find anything like that in the 3.5 SRD. Does 250 pounds per level seem just insane? I mean 1,250 pounds is like 30 strength. Is anything like that in the Psionics Unleashed supplement?

Ask him to show you the power he is using. It sounds damned unlikely
Also don't bother comparing anything from 2nd ed to current pathfinder based rules, 2nd ed was a hugely different game.

- He claims if he holds his glaive one square in front of him and monsters enter that square he gets an attack of opportunity. Is this actually a rule?? I researched it in the Pathfinder SRD/Core rulebook and couldn't find it.

If he's wielding his glaive then he will get an attack of opportunity when an enemy moves from 2 squares away from the character to the adjacent square unless it's a 5' step, there is some special rule for the monster or there is something affecting the character so he doesn't threaten
(1/round unless he has combat reflexes)

So functionally he's pretty close to accurate in his summary

What do you guys think? I don't really want to go toe-to-toe with him in rules-lawyer-fu but I may have to start stopping combat to read paragraphs of rules every time he claims something like that. Even then I'm sure the rule he's hiding from me that prevents him from being so overpowered is going to be like 5 paragraphs away from the paragraph he points me to. And he'll find a way to explain it and then treat me like the parent who said Christmas is cancelled.

All of the other players are starting to complain their characters are feeling useless even though they feel like they're on par for their level.

I think the best thing to do would be to
1) read the basics of the combat section
2) sit down with the player of the psion and go over each power, class ability and feat he has with the book there, also get the basics of how the class works (for example what psionic focus is)

They should give you a bit more of a handle on what he's trying to do.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

thanks for clarifying that. I'm never allowing psionics again. In the future we will be playing castles and crusades.

...

 

[Tovec]

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm never allowing psionics again. In the future we will be playing Castles and Crusades.

I have to echo Stream's

Just ban psionics. Psionics doesn't exist for PF yet. Only the 3.5 stuff is supposedly backward compatable. Otherwise you have to search out third-fourth?-party material.

In the future make the person with the highest knowledge and all the books be the DM. They are the one who probably should have been the DM in the first place this time.

You don't need to buy ALL the PF books but the Core would have been a minimum place to start.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

In the future make the person with the highest knowledge and all the books be the DM. They are the one who probably should have been the DM in the first place this time.

That's a very curious statement. The implication is that owning and memorizing books translates to running good games? I don't buy it. I've had awesome games with completely inexperienced DMs.

I would take it so far to say that I've found a slight inverse correlation between a player's knowledge of the game and their ability to create memorable scenarios and characters. The players that read through the books and say "Dude, if I take this feat I can expand my crit range from 16-20" just seem incapable of making interesting/memorable characters or DMing. Just my experience.

Why does everyone frown upon running a less rules-intensive game? No one else in the group owns a PF Core book, Sir Poofs-a-Lot can't run circles around me with rules, people in the group can't seem to remember what their feats do anyway, there's less potential for munchkining out and having huge power spreads between the gamers, and I know no one else will be reading the combat chapter of the base game anyway. I don't think any of my other players even know what a prestige class is anyway.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Is it surprising that when posting on a Pathfinder forum people here tend to like Pathfinder?

Knowledge of a game is pretty much orthogonal to imagination, somebody can know the game back to front and still be extremely imaginative or they can not know a game and still just want to hit things and kill them.

Rules knowledge might (for instance) mean that you don't get a multiclass sorceror/wizard which could be an interesting character concept but is a completely gimped character, so yeah you lose an interesting character concept but it's one that just doesn't work in the game (you lose way too much effectiveness compared to either a straight wizard or a sorceror)
But there's nothing in rules knowledge that means you can't have an interesting character and it does raise all sorts of ideas for scenarios that actually work without massive gm handwaving.

If you are running a system it's a damned good idea to understand the system before you start doing too much in the way of house rules

without a reasonable grip on the rules you generally
a) don't know what the actual rules for a situation are
b) can't tell what effects your house rule will have
c) what the PCs can & can't do by the book
d) you've got a much lower chance of giving a group a fun challenge level

If you don't want to learn the rules then don't play the system, if you want to play the system then you need to get at least a reasonable handle on the rules.