Class, Concept and Optimization

[Guest 6801328]

Was this a sincere conversation starter, or a plug for some other website?

In any event, I hadn't really thought much about where I get my concepts from, but thinking about it now the answer might have to be that I start with sub-classes, and then think of how those abilities might apply to something...a little different.

For example, I had a Kensai Monk I really enjoyed who didn't consider himself a monk: he was a swordsman. He came from a school of sword fighting where you are only allowed to use a wooden sword until you earn the right to use a real sword. Although it wasn't entirely clear to him how you do that, and he was a long way away from his school. Which was in ashes, anyway. (Metagame answer: when you reach 3rd level you get a real sword. Until then you are forced to use a sword-shaped quarterstaff. Derp.)

I'm waiting for a chance to play my half-orc Cavalier. He wants nothing more than to be a valiant knight, rescuing damsels, but he's bitter (and very vocal) about the discrimination he's suffered "from them purdy boys" among the ranks of knights and paladins. So he'll go his own way, throwing himself in the path of danger to prove that he's as knightly as any of 'em.

 

[Ancalagon]

Some people are good at "blue sky" creation. They are happiest and most creative when you give them the fewest restrictions.

I am not one of those people. I tend to do my best, most creative work, when given restrictions. I am, in effect, better at writing sonnets than I am at writing free verse. When I get to ask myself, "How do I do this particular thing in a fun way?" I come up with cool answers.

I understand what you mean. Sometimes I do have a concept in advance, and that's the 50% when I'm not gap filling. But if I *don't* have a concept well... starting a concept to fill that gap, it provides the broad outline - the restrictions and a little bit more - to start creating.

Sometimes the "gap" can be pretty wide. For example "the party is pretty well balanced, but there isn't anyone with any nature skills, at all". That's... a pretty wide gap. But it's way narrower than "play whatever you want, no one has picked yet!".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Most of the time, I have several ideas floating around in my head that could exist in a new game, but sometimes none of them fit the campaign and group I see before me. I'm not going to bring the second Thief Rogue into a group, or a classic heavy armor dwarf Paladin into a Leverage style game. Not that I'd ever play such a character, anyway.

So, one of three things happens, usually.

A) I've got an image, a scene, a scrap of dialogue, or a "fighting style" in my head, and I want to find the fictional person who can make it work. "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." Now, I just gotta figure out who the hell this gunslinger is, and the most effective way to build a gunslinger in the system we're using, that doesn't lean toward a boring hyperspecialised one trick pony that only looks good in a white room. The background fills out what other mechanical angles to pursue beyond Gunslinging, like falconry, sleight of hand, and occult knowledge.

2) I've got a background, a hook, or a powerful character moment. I explore the ideas, find a good name, figure out what race feels right there isn't one inherent to the concept, and then usually a short list of builds fit into what I've built in my head.

3) "I've not played a Bard yet in 5e, which is weird since they're classically in my top 3. Let's look at bard images on pinterest until something more than "a bard" jumps out at me! Oh snap! That's a fancy looking bardy sea elf or water genasi! He looks like maybe a knife thrower, as well? Maybe a College of Swords Bard?" Alternatively, "For unknown reasons, I have to play a Bugbear Artificer or Monk, who is very well groomed and articulate, and terrifying when roused."


Very occasionally I'll have an idea that is purely about making an odd tactic work, like a bugbear eldritch knight with booming blade, polearm master, sentinel, and a glaive, who bops enemies as they try to close or reach an ally, making them lose their movement, then hits with Booming Blade on their turn, perhaps Goading Strike if I take Martial Adept for it as that bonus action attack, and then moves back 5-10 ft. 15ft reach with that glaive, bc bugbear, very often screwed whether they move or don't.

 

[Zardnaar]

I come up with a silly name then build a character around that.

So behold, Chugstein, my drunken master hill dwarf Viking-esque sailor, who is certain he's a human despite his affinity for masonry and hammers, and drinks to quell his roiling cognitive dissonance. And to quiet the memories of the loss of the all-granite ship he built, The Sinking Stone, which was lost with all hands save Chugstein on its maiden voyage.

With your permission can I borrow chugstein. Already have an idea of Siegfried Von Chugstein and his new granite boat in the annual Magnimar yacht race.

 

[iserith]

With your permission can I borrow chugstein. Already have an idea of Siegfried Von Chugstein and his new granite boat in the annual Magnimar yacht race.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

(In case anyone is unaware: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_ship )

 

[ccs]

With one exception I'll go every wich way, including random, when making a character.
Sometimes it'll be concept 1st, (This is how my warlock got translated into PF as a Summoner - Here's what I want to do, how can I realize that in PF??? I am quite pleased with the result
Sometimes it'll be mechanics based, (honestly this is how my 5e warlock began. I wanted to give this new not-EB mandatory version of the class a try)
Sometimes it'll be story based, (This is how my barbarian began)
In some cases it's a mix of all three & it's hard to define which was primary.
Sometimes inspiration will begin with a mini/art/etc.
And sometimes I'll just roll Race/Class randomly.... (for ex: Gorgira, the {fire breating} green dragonborn ancients paladin I rolled up this evening. The DM doesn't care if the color/breath effect match)
Over the years I've also found that I tend to alternate between caster/non-caster (or mostly non-caster). Ex; Tonights paladin replaced a wizard.

The exception? Gap filler. I am the wrong person to look to for that. I don't care if the party has some gaping deficiency. In my xp that'll just be another factor in the story. Hopefully an interesting one.
My not at all subtle thought on this is: "If you're so damned worried about us not having ____? Then YOU should play it. Oh, wait, you rolled up your character however you pleased, didn't pick that - but yet you expect me to limit my choice? *&^% that."
I also do not expect you to limit your choice based upon what I've made.
Now it might just happen that whichever way I'm going yields a character that also manages to fill a gap, but it's not intentional.

 

[GMMichael]

I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. How do players come up with their concept? Does it include a class, or does that come later?

For me I think I usually have a mental image or I see a picture that I think is cool, then the concept starts to fill in around it. I use reskinning with abandon to make the concept as optimal as I can, because usually being effective is part of what I'm picturing.

Wait, what? The Concept is what you optimize for "being effective?" I don't think that word means what you think it means. Which leads me to the question: "what's this thread about?"

Concept: general idea of what/who a character is.
Build: the intentional evolution of a character sheet.
Stats: the numbers/details that go on a character sheet.

Sorry if this has been addressed, but I didn't see any clarifications from the Lvl20.

How do players come up with their concept? My guess is, on average, that they have a favorite character (movie or video game) that they want to emulate. How do I do it? Hmm...which way is the wind blowing...

 

[5ekyu]

Because I mostly GM when I get to play I often have several ideas for characters in mind.
Once I get info on setting etc usually that sparks a fire under one more than others.

Often I start with what essentially is race-class-background as a broad picture. It's not exact, it's like halfling urchin who uncovered some innate magic talent - can lead to sorc, bard etc maybe urchin, criminal, charlatan. Race is often the first thing set.

I also see them as "good at..." a couple things (never just one) and that follows thru the design and crafting.

But the same basic character was an entertainer celestial sorcerer halfling in one game and a charlatan halfling bard-wizard in another (stone singer with more NPC ties in background cuz GM provided more setting stuff to hook into. Both were/are very fun and exciting and effective in play.

Next up IDK maybe wood elf scout or Dwarven warlock (keep wanting to make that warlock thing work.)