Class Design: One Primary Attack Stat

[Rechan]

This isn't related. I was talking about a cleric with a 16 in Str and 16 Wis or a paladin with a 16 Str and 16 Cha, vs. something like a rogue with an 18 in Dex or a wizard with 18 Int. A dual-stat character may choose to try to use both of their primary attack stats - and will thus be weaker, since it's almost impossible to get two 18s, and if you do you will likely have very poor other stats. I think you agreed with this in your post.

I agree that doing so is a dumb strategy - just, as I said, it would be a dumb strategy for a Tactical Warlord to shoot for having a 14 in Int and 14 in Cha, so he can take Charisma-benefiting powers.

I do not, however, see it as a design flaw. I see it as "Trying to do too much at once."

Simply put: I disagree. Less simply put: "strictly weaker" is being defined as "fewer options" for what I'm saying; fewer choices is overall technically inferior to more choices. If you're stuck on the particular word choice, that's cool; it's honestly not that important to my point. The dual-stat classes are "less than" the single-stat classes; that's what I am trying to convey.

Less than in some regards, more than in others. The mono-stat classes have 2 vanilla choices (which emphasize neither build) and 1 option which emphasizes build (For example, the Rogue have 2 non-build encounter powers, and 1 for Brutal Scoundrel and Artful Dodger), whereas the Dual-stat have 2 encounter powers that emphasize each build. I just don't buy that that is hugely sub-par.

If you feel that they are less than, well, you're welcome to it. I'm going to continue with the opinion the dual-stats are more than, by offering more distinct difference.

 

[FireLance]

FireLance: That's basically what I proposed over in the House Rules forum, except without the -2. I don't see a need for incentive to stay with one stat.

I personally would keep it, for flavor and thematic purposes. Of course, that's more a question of taste than mechanical balance.

 

[evilbob]

I do not, however, see it as a design flaw.

I do. Especially since the way classes are written, it encourages a player to try to do both things. (Even example characters often pull from both paths.) The cleric is the worst for this, in my opinion.

I'm going to continue with the opinion the dual-stats are more than, by offering more distinct difference.

And as I said before, I completely agree that having distinct differences and different class paths is a very good idea, and I like the extra options. It's just a shame that it makes the class itself weaker when compared to single-stat classes who have fewer requirements and an easier time covering all their available options with their stats. In other words, it's much easier for a rogue to have a 14 Cha AND 14 Str to go along with their 18 Dex than a paladin to have an 18 Str, 18 Cha, and 14 Wis. Because of this, the dual-stat classess are disadvantaged. But if you disagree, well, you're welcome to it.

 

[Jhaelen]

I do. Especially since the way classes are written, it encourages a player to try to do both things. (Even example characters often pull from both paths.) The cleric is the worst for this, in my opinion.

Well, I think it makes the decision what powers to choose more difficult - and that's why I consider it a good thing. If the player chooses a power with an attack stat that isn't his highest stat, he's consciously trading a lower chance to hit for the effects granted by this power.
Imho, that's very similar to the choices that lead someone to take multiclassing feats.

If all powers for a class always require the same attack stat, it's easier to single out a 'best' power for every character. Now, that's bad!

And as I said before, I completely agree that having distinct differences and different class paths is a very good idea, and I like the extra options. It's just a shame that it makes the class itself weaker when compared to single-stat classes who have fewer requirements and an easier time covering all their available options with their stats. In other words, it's much easier for a rogue to have a 14 Cha AND 14 Str to go along with their 18 Dex than a paladin to have an 18 Str, 18 Cha, and 14 Wis. Because of this, the dual-stat classess are disadvantaged. But if you disagree, well, you're welcome to it.

It doesn't make them weaker, it just makes some options less desirable. It's also something that can be alleviated by introducing more powers. If a single-stat class gives a choice of 5 powers per level and a dual-stat class gives a choice of 10 powers, 5 each for the two attack stats, which one is better off?

 

[Xris Robin]

I dunno what you guys are talking about, my 16/16 Paladin works just fine...

 

[evilbob]

If all powers for a class always require the same attack stat, it's easier to single out a 'best' power for every character. Now, that's bad!

I disagree, and for evidence I present the wizard, rogue, warlord, and fighter.

It's also something that can be alleviated by introducing more powers.

Right, and my point before was that when new powers are introduced, more powers will -also- be introduced for the single-stat classes, thus preserving the gap. For example: Martial Power introduces more ranger powers, but it also introduces more powers for fighters, rogues, and warlords.

Christopher Robin: I am glad your paladin is working well. I also propose that if your paladin had an 18 Cha and only needed Cha instead of both Str and Cha, it would work better (approx. 5% better).

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I disagree, and for evidence I present the wizard, rogue, warlord, and fighter.

Well, since you bring up the Fighter, I thought I would comment on that since I play one. The Fighter has three secondary stats. There's the a STR/CON build, STR/DEX build and a STR/WIS build. It's basically impossible to juggle 4 different stats, so you're always going to be limited in some capacity. There are even some powers and feats which key off certain weapons. Hounding Longarm, for example, requires a reach weapon to even be able to use it, and then you need a high DEX (not WIS, like the polemarm builds, so it works better with reach spears) to get the extra damage out of it. This is why, for example, my STR/CON Axe-wielding Dragonborn Fighter will never have Rain of Blows. He just won't, unless I want to purposefully gimp him with a substandard power.

The problem with your complaint is that you assume that all the single-stat classes can just pick whatever powers they want, when it's not true. Even if you start with an 18/14/14 in the primary and two secondary stats, you can only raise two stats when leveling. So either you'll raise the primary and alternate the two secondaries, which will result in much lower scores in those secondaries at higher tiers, or you'll have to pick one and leave the other one at a 14. Then throw in that some of the classes have particular builds, skill requirements, weapon requirements and different secondary/tertiary scores for different powers and everyone is limited to some extent when they pick their powers.

 

[Jhaelen]

Right, and my point before was that when new powers are introduced, more powers will -also- be introduced for the single-stat classes, thus preserving the gap. For example: Martial Power introduces more ranger powers, but it also introduces more powers for fighters, rogues, and warlords.

Right, and my point was that after a certain baseline number of powers to choose from it doesn't matter if additional choices are added.

If you're happy being able to choose between five different powers, it doesn't matter if there are 100 others.
Case in point are the spell lists in 3E: How many of the hundreds of spells available at each level have ever been selected by players?

IME, new spells have (almost) never been chosen, unless they strictly represented power creep. Almost all new spells were situationally better, so noone chose them, because it is (almost) always better to select spells that are good in the majority of situations.

Once there's a sufficient number of powers to give a baseline, everything else is just variations of a theme; more options no longer translate into more flexibility and thus power.

Imho, of course.

 

[evilbob]

The problem with your complaint is that you assume that all the single-stat classes can just pick whatever powers they want,

Actually, no, that's true at all. My complaint is that it's easier to get an 18 in one stat and 14 in two others than an 18 in two stats and a 14 in another (or two more). I don't think anyone has disagreed / will disagree with that.

Jhaelen: I understand what you're saying, but I still think that more options > fewer options.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Actually, no, that's true at all. My complaint is that it's easier to get an 18 in one stat and 14 in two others than an 18 in two stats and a 14 in another (or two more). I don't think anyone has disagreed / will disagree with that.

Jhaelen: I understand what you're saying, but I still think that more options > fewer options.

That's irrelevant for anything past the first couple of levels. To remain at a competitive level over the course of the campaign it's usually best to just pick two stats and raise those at every one of the "+1 to two stats" levels. If you're doing that, then you'll always have a third stat that's lagging behind, no matter what it started at.

For example, my Axe-wielding Dragonborn Fighter has an 18/16/12/10/12/10 (not quite so easy to get that second 18 when it's not a boosted stat) for his stats. Assuming I pump STR and CON every level I'll have 26/24/14/12/14/12 by 28th level. So at that point, would it make a lot of sense to suddenly switch to a Longsword and retrain Skullcrusher for Fangs of Steel? Of course not!

Now, lets say I wanted to go with Scale or Shield Specialization at Paragon level...which is something I've actually thought about doing. That would mean that I would need a 15 DEX (impossible if I raise CON at every opportunity) and I would need to shift my scores a bit. I could pump DEX during the Heroic tier and no touch CON until 14th level and then pump it from that point on. This would get me a 26/22/16/12/14/12 for my stats. So while I'll now have Scale or Shield Spec, I've done so at the cost of decreased effectiveness with my CON based abilities. I'll be giving up a hit point, a healing surge, a point of damage off my Dragonbreath powers, a point of to-hit from Dragon Blast (I plan on taking the Inner Dragon PP) as well as a point of extra damage from any of my powers that add additional damage equal to my CON mod when using certain weapons.

So yes, what you said is true in that for some races it's hard to get two 18's, but it's not impossible. Races like the Elf they can get two 18's in stats useful to their class by picking Ranger, then putting a 16 into DEX and WIS and you'll have an 18 in your primary and secondary stat. Same with an Eladrin Wand Wizard or a Tiefling Fey Pact Warlock. Is this the norm though? Certainly not. Additionally, can you keep up that stat spread? Only at the sacrifice of higher level play ability. Otherwise, you'll be pumping those two 18's and leaving that 14 behind to eventually become a 16 at the Epic tier. So yes, you can get two 18's with certain race/class/build options and at 1st level. After that though, the math just doesn't add up. One stat will drop off, and this may bar you from taking certain feats and make certain powers sub-optimal to take for that character.

Granted, the melee Cleric and the STR Pally will have the problem a little earlier, but this isn't a big deal. They can each either put their points into the two primary stats and forgo secondary effects, or they can pick one and then usually only have to worry about a single secondary stat. So instead of being like a Fighter where you have STR as the primary, and then CON, DEX and WIS as possible secondary/tertiary stats, you can just have a STR/WIS Pally or STR/CHA Pally and put a few points in the single odd ability as your secondary stat. It's much easier to juggle in some ways due to that fact.

For example, you could use a Dragonborn to make a STR/CHA Pally with 18's in each stat and a 14 in WIS for two Lay on Hands per day. Then just pump STR and CHA every level and you'll have at least a +2 for secondary effects...so you can get that elusive 18/18/14 with at least one of the dual stat classes.