D&D 4E Class-free 4E

[DogBackward]

I can't find where it says anything about that. Where does it say exactly how Healing Surges interact with those abilities?

Honestly, I'd just say that you get +2 healing surges each time you take the HP increasing option. Maybe increase the cost to 1.5 or 2 CP if you think that makes those options overpowered. Really, you don't see high healing surge numbers on low HP classes, so those fit together perfectly.

 

[Ambush Bug]

I can't find where it says anything about that. Where does it say exactly how Healing Surges interact with those abilities?

Honestly, I'd just say that you get +2 healing surges each time you take the HP increasing option. Maybe increase the cost to 1.5 or 2 CP if you think that makes those options overpowered. Really, you don't see high healing surge numbers on low HP classes, so those fit together perfectly.

Thanks for pointing that out - I edited the original to explain how the bonus surges are added. I originally did something similar to what you suggest for healing surges, but I couldn't find a way to balance the high-surge classes with everyone else. If not for the fact that I wanted to be able to replicate the PHB classes, I'd just say "surges cost X points" and be done (if the math worked).

 

[RangerWickett]

I like this, but I still haven't used 4e that much yet, so I don't know how all this balance would work out.

I might end up using some of your ideas with some of my own:

• Power Damage. Making powers do preset damage like 5d6 instead of 5[w] and then allowing you to use any weapon on any power. (Doing this for balance and to let players decide on their flavor more.)
• Wound System. You gain 10 + Con Wound Points, and the rest of what you'd normally get is still Hit Points. When you have taken any wound damage you are considered bloodied. Any critical hit that deals wound damage inflicts some persistent wound (broken hand, fractured skull, torn ACL). All HP heals with a short rest. WP heals 1/day, or faster with rest. (Of course, I'd have to revise how abilities that use healing surges work.)
• Combat Grooves. If you've ever played Capcom vs. SNK, there's a system called 'grooves.' You choose one of several 'grooves' when picking your character, which determines some special combat tricks you can do (dashes, dodges, parries, counterattacks, etc.) and how you can use your 'super moves.' I'm trying to come up with a way to get rid of the highly artifical "encounter" and "daily" powers dynamic, and replace it with the only-somewhat artificial "groove" dynamic. As you get into the 'groove' of combat, you're able to do more dramatic things.

Basically, I'm looking to heavily house rule 4e, and I like your system.

 

[corwyn77]

I had an earlier draft that did something like what you suggest; it's buried in this forum. But as I sat there deconstructing the balance of various class features and making goofy cross-source builds, I decided to blow the whole thing wide open and see what happened. Given the way that powers key off of specific attributes, and given how difficult it is to excel in more than 2 attributes, I haven't figured out a character build yet that seems to break balance, even if it dips into all three source types.

Which is not to say it can't happen, just that I haven't done it. Is that why you suggest separating power sources - keeping balance?

Well, my reasons for separating the power sources would be that i think that significant versatility should come up with a price. It may not be necessary for balance, but it encourages common archetypes without requiring them.

I am curious, though, why, if you wanted to 'blow the whole thing wide open', why you charged a cost for access to wizard (and only wizard) spells?

I'm also interested because wizards seem the most problematic in this system due to the fact that, IMO, Spellbook and Cantrips are not worth 10 points total. Most likely, this has less to do with any flaw in your system, which I like a lot, and more to do with wizards being needlessly fragile in 4e (since they don't need to be balanced with the high power level of their spells as in earlier editions). I'd like to charge 3 or 4 each but then it would be hard to balance the rest of the class and they're not that underpowered.

What I might do is charge 4 each for Cantrips and Spellbook, drop wizard training, charge 1 point for the extra rituals. That leaves them with 2 points to spare. Call that leather armour and striker HP (which they should probably have in the first place; or an extra skill to reflect their bookishness (with a wizard's likely stats, they're not prone to spend those skills on more physical pursuits anyway.

 

[Inlicere]

Very cool stuff... do you know if anyone has done a "race-free" 4E along similar lines? I.e., assign point values to the racial abilities?

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

great work, Ambush Bug!

maybe you should add the following:
- add rogue weapon profs for 1 point
- make rogue / fighter weapon talent exclusive too

Concerning powers, I would add the following restriction, because utility and some other powers are not affected by stats:

Choose your character's powers from any class list, but only if you have at least spent 5 points into the corresponding power source. For more power options, choose the appropriate multi-class feats.

AKW

 

[Cang]

This is a great system you worked out. A few things i would change is make it 20 CP and have heavy shield, medium armor, and simple melee as a 1 point buy too and remove the free simple melee.

 

[Burne]

QR

Rogue Weapon Talent is cheap at 1 point, Suggest Rogue Weapon Talent 2, Sneak attack 4
Combat Challenge is powerful, and Fighter Weapon Talent is equal to Rogue Weapon talent, CC 6 , FWT 2. This leaves all the +1 to hit skills at 2 points.

Channel Divinity is cheap (Why not buy one of the one pointers and have access to all the Channel feats) I don't see a pretty solution, but I suggest something like Channel Divinity base 2, specific uses of CD 1, and you must buy at least 1. Since this effects both the Cleric and Paladin point totals, I don't have a perfect answer.

You can't build a PHB Rogue with the points given since the Rogue weapon profeciencies are weird. The rogue power's are annoying as well since they require specific weapons.

I do like the idea of buying powersources, assuming you want characters to conform to those arch-types. I find that "Sword-guy that also shoots fire, and heals" is much too SuperHero like for me. You could also justify getting rid of the power sources, and require characters to purchase a role. This offers a solution to the Wizard problem in that you just price the Controller role higher than the rest. Ex. Striker 2, Defender 2, Leader 3, Controller 4.

 

[Ambush Bug]

Well, my reasons for separating the power sources would be that i think that significant versatility should come up with a price. It may not be necessary for balance, but it encourages common archetypes without requiring them.

I am curious, though, why, if you wanted to 'blow the whole thing wide open', why you charged a cost for access to wizard (and only wizard) spells?

We'll have to disagree on some points - I think significant versatility is fun, and that archetypes are boring. I do like the idea of separating power sources, and my first draft of this did just that. I might return to this in a later version. As for charging the extra CP for wizard abilities, that was mostly a clumsy fix to come up with a system that more-or-less allowed people to recreate PHB classes. As it is, Spellbook and Cantrips may be overpriced, and the wizard was still too cheap, so you pay the extra CP to get access to all those area-effect abilities. There's a better solution, but I haven't found one that still recreates the PHB classes.

All that said, your modification ideas make excellent sense. I'd be more likely to use them in a home game than I would my own. This is an intellectual exercise, more than an attempt to build the game I'm wishing for.

 

[Ambush Bug]

Very cool stuff... do you know if anyone has done a "race-free" 4E along similar lines? I.e., assign point values to the racial abilities?

Haven't seen it. I've played with the idea, and might take a stab at it later this year. Unless someone beats me to it.