D&D 5E class mastery

[Greenstone.Walker]

I do like the idea of being able to use everything in a class, but i cant think of a way around that.

In all seriousness, have you tried a classless game system?

 

[Satyrn]

In the PHB it said you can't pick the same class twice. But what if someone wanted to totally master a class. This discussion took place between me and four other local DM's that our high school uses. In the end, we ended up with no solutions only to end up where we started. Yet I still can't help but wonder why it is we can't multiclass to the same class and just take a separate archetype, and leave out the basic skills cause the character already learned it.

It would require that all the classes be written differently than they are, and the designers may have felt annoyingly constrained if they gad to write up classes and class features with the expectation that they could be gained several times.

Like, if there were 20 rogue subclasses, and you multiclassed in all of them as written you'd have have a 20d6 Sneak Attack. So that's something that would have to tweaked, perhaps by moving Sneak attack to 2nd level - but then that delays the signature feature of a rogue which is maybe not desired.

Then, on the flip side, the rogue has features like Uncanny Dodge that don't stack up if you gain it multiple times. So being an assassin/thief means you're gaining no benefit from gaining that feature a second time. So it would have to be rewritten in some way so that it stacks. I know that multiclassing as it is now presents that possibility already (a barbarian/monk can't benefit from both its unarmored defenses) but it would come up so very often if one could do rogue/rogue, monk/monk or whatever - so much that non-stacking features probably couldn't exist (before 11th level since you couldn:''t get those twice) .


The classes would look significantly different if all the features were stackable - and they'd probably be all wind up being about increased number of uses per day, or if it was an always on feature then it would be an extra +1 to something, which would likely not fit in well with bounded accuracy.

 

[Lanliss]

The simplest solution would be to allow characters to gain archetype abilities via epic boons. So a rouge assassin 20 could gain the arcane trickster's spellcasting and legerdemain features at "21st" level, magical ambush at "22nd", versatile trickster at "23rd", and spell thief at "24th". He can master all three archetypes by "28th" level. While archetype abilities are arguably better than many epic boons, since everyone has access to these options it should largely balance out. Epic D&D is fairly wahoo anyway, with balance being less of a significant factor than it is at low levels.

I think the simplest solution would be to let it happen. at 3rd level, pick 2 sublcasses. You gain abilities from both at relevant levels. As long as everyone in the game is doing it, it will work out fine. The only problem would be if one person did, and others didn't.

 

[Senshi-shi]

obviously not.

 

[SunGold]

"Anybody any good at what they do, that's what they are, right? You gotta jack, I gotta tussle." - William Gibson, Neuromancer

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You seemed to want to hear from people who voted "nope," so here are some thoughts from one nope-voter.

When I think of "mastery," I think of dedication to a particular skill, or small set of skills, over the course of a lifetime. A world-class sushi chef is not a world-class pastry chef. If my character could do everything from a particular class, I'd always feel like they were probably a bit crap at all of it. Specialization is fun and, IMO, feels like true mastery.

This change would also have a big effect on flavor & personality. Take the cleric domains, for example. A cleric drawn to healing and looking out for others is going to have a wildly different personality than one who wants to bring down the wrath of a storm. I like PCs who really live and reflect their specialties, but that would be really difficult with such wide scopes of abilities.

So yeah, this doesn't sound fun or rewarding to me. But D&D rules are made for breakin', so if you think otherwise, do you.

 

[Senshi-shi]

Thanks to all of the people who spoke up, due to the criticism and support i have a better idea of what others in the comunity think and how to procede with this if I end up trying to implement this in a campaign. Also sorry if I seem like a anoyance and was unclear in my thoughts on the subect.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think the simplest solution would be to let it happen. at 3rd level, pick 2 sublcasses. You gain abilities from both at relevant levels. As long as everyone in the game is doing it, it will work out fine. The only problem would be if one person did, and others didn't.

That doesn't actually address the OP's issue. The OP said that they would like a way for characters to be able to master every subclass for their class. Most classes have more than 2 subclasses. Giving them all of their subclasses at 3rd level obviously wouldn't work because a wizard (with 8 subclasses) would be much better than a barbarian (2 subclasses). That is why I recommended epic level. Not only does it delay potentially unbalanced combos until the point where the game gets pretty hand wavey about balance, but it works equally well for all classes. The barbarian gains full mastery at 28th? level (AFB) and can then focus on getting his stats to 30 (or other boons) while the wizard will be occupied til something like 48th level if striving for mastery. If the game even goes on for that long, the DM would have to figure out on his own how to balance the game for the players (there's no advice in the DMG on creating challenges for parties of 20th level characters with 28 epic boons and who knows how many legendary items).

 

[LordNightwinter]

I don't think it's nuts per se, but it does involve a lot of dead levels where you don't gain any real benefits for leveling (beyond hp). Assuming you allow another character to multiclass normally (ie, at level 54 he might be a Paladin 20 / Sorcerer 20 / Warlock 14) the normal multiclass character will be much more powerful than the guys specializing in their existing class. Similarly, a Druid Land 7 / Moon 5 is not going to compare favorably against a Paladin 12, because while he has the hp of a 12th level character his features are only a little better than those of a 7th level druid.

In my opinion, making the player take all those dead levels makes the cost too great. On the other hand, just letting them take the archetype levels is probably too strong (ie, a 3rd level Druid who is Land 2 / Moon 2). Under the latter, an assassin rogue could dip one level of arcane trickster to gain all of the trickster's spellcasting progression for the relatively low cost of one level (Shield alone makes this worth it).

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] has a good idea, although I wouldn't allow it to work quite like he describes. The reason is that many classes have utility levels built into the archetypes. For example, allowing a 6th level Totem Warrior Barbarian to take Frenzy instead of Aspect of the Beast is arguably overpowered.

The simplest solution would be to allow characters to gain archetype abilities via epic boons. So a rouge assassin 20 could gain the arcane trickster's spellcasting and legerdemain features at "21st" level, magical ambush at "22nd", versatile trickster at "23rd", and spell thief at "24th". He can master all three archetypes by "28th" level. While archetype abilities are arguably better than many epic boons, since everyone has access to these options it should largely balance out. Epic D&D is fairly wahoo anyway, with balance being less of a significant factor than it is at low levels.

While it is isn't exactly what you're looking, I created the following feat for my own game. I haven't had any issues with it, although I've only had it used twice (once by a druid [land/moon] and once by a wizard [conjuration/evocation]). It is, however, rather complex and requires some DM adjudication.

Prodigy
You are a master of two paths and your ability to think outside the box and innate affinity to your class has allowed you to learn to blend training from more than one subclass of your class. You gain the following benefits:

You gain proficiency in one additional skill or tool of your choice from your class list.

Choose a second subclass from a class you already have levels in and that has more than one subclass. Doing so grants you the following benefits:
When you gain a new feature from your subclass after taking this feat, you may choose which of your subclasses to gain features from. (You do not gain the benefits of both.) You are considered to be of that subclass until the next level at which your subclass grants a feature (this pertains to abilities the subclass grants in between feature levels).

For example, a Druid could become both a Land and a Moon druid. At 2nd level, you could choose to gain either the Circle of the Land features (Bonus Cantrip and Natural Recovery) or the Circle of the Moon Features (Combat Wild Shape and the 2nd level benefits of Circle Forms). If you choose Land druid, you also gain Circle Spells at levels 3rd and 5th. At 6th level, you can again choose between Land (Land’s Stride) and Moon (Primal Strike and the 6th level benefits of Circle Forms). If you choose Land at 6th level, you will also gain the 7th and 9th level Circle Spells. At 10th level you can choose between Nature’s Ward and Elemental Wild Shape, and at 14th level you may choose between Nature’s Sanctuary and Thousand Forms.

Let’s assume you are playing a Druid with this feat and select Circle of the Moon at 2nd level. You gain Combat Wild Shape and Circle Forms. Then, at 6th level, you choose Circle of the Land. You gain Land’s Stride and will gain the bonus spells at 7th and 9th level appropriate to the land type you chose. However, you are still limited to CR 1 beast shapes, since you have not reached 6th level as far as your Circle of the Moon features are concerned. At 10th level you take Circle of the Moon again and gain Elemental Wild Shape. Additionally, you can now assume the form of CR 2 beasts since you are effectively 6th level in the Circle of the Moon. At 13th level you gain the ability to become a CR 3 beast. At 14th level, if you choose Circle of the Land you gain Nature’s Sanctuary and your Wild Shape does not increase beyond CR 3. If you choose Circle of the Moon you gain Thousand Forms, and your Wild Shape CR increases to 4 at 16th level and 5 at 19th level.

As another example, a Fighter could choose to be both a Champion and Eldritch Knight. At 3rd level assume you choose Champion, gaining Improved Critical. At 7th level, you choose Eldritch Knight, gaining War Magic and Spellcasting. However, your spellcasting starts as per a 3rd level Eldritch Knight, because you were not an Eldritch Knight from levels 3-6, and therefore did not gain the benefits thereof. At 9th level, you will have the equivalent casting of a 5th level Eldritch Knight. Continuing on, at 10th level you take Champion, gaining Additional Fighting Style. Once again, because you are not an Eldritch Knight during this period, your Spellcasting will not improve from levels 10 to 14. At 15th level, you once again switch to Eldritch Knight, gaining Arcane Charge and improving your Spellcasting to the equivalent of a 6th level Eldritch Knight. At level 17, your Spellcasting will have improved to the equivalent of a level 8th level Eldritch Knight (allowing you to choose one spell from any school of magic, per your Spellcasting feature). If you choose Eldritch Knight at level 18, you gain Improved War Magic, and by 20th level you will be the equivalent of 11th level Eldritch Knight in Spellcasting ability. If you instead choose Champion at 18th level, you gain Survivor and your Spellcasting capabilities will remain the equivalent of an 8th level Eldritch Knight.

I remember seeing an improved version of this feat somewhere because I let one of my players test it. Does anyone know where it is?

 

[Li Shenron]

Yet I still can't help but wonder why it is we can't multiclass to the same class and just take a separate archetype, and leave out the basic skills cause the character already learned it.

Most of the class features would not stack with themselves if taken twice, you'd end up much worse than single-class.

It also doesn't make sense to take the class twice, it's a bit like taking the same school degree twice.

Mixing 2 archetypes would make some sense, and it was suggested before that a DM could allow a PC to earn the features of either of those archetypes, just make sure that the PC doesn't get any archetype feature earlier than with the normal rules.