Class revisions

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Monks ki strike

Ki Strike 3.5 might read: "...as if the the blow were made with a weapon made of a special material (Silver, Cold Iron etc.). At x level, the monk's blows deal damage to a creature with DR as if with a magic weapon. At y level the monk's attacks act as a Sure Striking weapon, ignoring any damage reduction."

Duke Frinn

You can have some fun with this. foul Demon you can not stand up to my holysilver striking willow technique.

Ha, fey you shall drop before my cold iron knee of doooooom.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There isn't enough info on DR to say that.

As for ranger front-loading, it's a lot more attractive for rogues...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Paladins...

You forgot to mention the *kickin* spells which the Paladin gets - dispel magic, *dispel evil*, **holy sword** (and you can use the useless 2nd level slots for extra Bless Weapon - one of the most brilliant spells any fighter type could want!

I'm astonished that the paladin spell list is often discounted, since it is so good at enhancing his fighting capabilities. Complete contrast to the ranger list which utterly sucks apart from the crowd-pleasing "polymorph self" which pops in out of nowhere and changes you into, well, something else...

Holy Sword is pretty cool, but it is not an exceptional ability at the level you acquire it (circa level 15).

The usefulness of Dispel Evil and Dispel Magic are undermined by low caster level. The saving throw against Dispel Evil isn't going to touch powerful CR 15 outsiders at a feeble DC ~16 even if you successfully cut through SR.

My main problem with the Paladin holds true for the Ranger and Barbarian as well: Once you have 6-8 levels under your belt, it is too long before you get a beefy new ability; you are better off just multiclassing. Holding your breathe for Holy Sword is not worthwhile unless you love the character concept.

In fact, due to frontloading issues, I think the Paladin is a fair shake up to level 9 or 10 compared to a Fighter.

My second big problem with the Paladin is the anemic spell list. Compare with the Holy Avenger PrC.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wand of Holy Sword - 420gp per charge...

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

If there were only single-class characters, I think there would never be a problem with "front-loadedness".

Instead, the multiclass rules, although a gorgeous improvement compared with AD&D, still have a serious problem. As they are written, it seems that the original idea was to allow PCs with 2, 3 or more classes always kept at the same level (except obviously 1 level of difference while advancing), just as in the old days, with a new option: the favored class can be "any level".

This was supposed give a new possibility: to have a PC which is mainly of a class and marginally of another, as long as one of the 2 is familiar to his race/culture.

Unfortunately, this is very frequently abused to have a PC which is basically single-class plus the 1st level of a couple of others exactly just to get the 1st level benefits, which is always the most important level.

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Now, why the Ranger is the worst case? There is a common circumstance when you have little reasons to take 1 level of it.

If you are a Figther, a level of Ranger gives you 2 more feats and 2 more skill points (or 8 if it's taken first) and a Favored Enemy bonus. Drawbacks are that you don't choose the feats and delay Weapon Spec to 1 level later. *

That works as well with the Barbarian and the Paladin, but the alignment restriction at least makes it more difficult for the latter.

Spellcasters are less likely to delay 1 level worth of spells, but still some may take a level of Figther or Paladin for the full proficiencies.

I think that it should be fine to front-load every class, after all the characters start at an adult age usually, and are supposed to have "gained" their first level in all previous time, while the level up very fast. It's when they multiclass that it starts making less sense and problems arise. That goes for every class, but in my experience, I have just seen too many combat-oriented character taking the 1st Ranger level (and maybe didn't even exploit the feats at all).

* I know it sounds a stupid artificial example, but if you play a Human/Dwarf Fighter early or late you have to face the question: do I want a new feat or Track+Ambidex+2WF+2skillPoints+FavEnBonus? You must be brave to be able to resist

 

[Steverooo]

 

 

[Steverooo]

 

 

[Steverooo]

 

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think that it should be fine to front-load every class, after all the characters start at an adult age usually, and are supposed to have "gained" their first level in all previous time, while the level up very fast. It's when they multiclass that it starts making less sense and problems arise. That goes for every class, but in my experience, I have just seen too many combat-oriented character taking the 1st Ranger level (and maybe didn't even exploit the feats at all).

I am probably speaking against of those "sacred cows", but I think your reasoning speaks for splitting standard 1st level of a class into two (or more) levels and the standard budding hero being "level 2" or "level 3" at start. If you want to take only one level of, say, wizard, but still want some broad casting options, you should fill out your abilities by spending a feat.

The frontloading occurs because the designers want every 1st level character to be a fully functional archetype. That melds badly with the multiclassing rules.

IMO, a character should really be level 2-3 before they are fully competent. Frex, a knight started out as a squire. That squire is a level 1 Aristocrat or Expert or Warrior who takes training as a Fighter. He is probably not knighted until he has two Fighter levels under his belt.


The biggest reason to start with one level of Ranger for a career Fighter is for the skill points. 8 extra skill points and a good skill list is certainly worth at least 2 Feats. Not only can you take 4 ranks in Spot and Listen, but you can spend your normal 2 points on some useful skills as well.

 

[Steverooo]