Classes and damage

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I agree that featless vs feated games should probably have different baselines. However, establishing one baseline for each would be helpful regardless of class, because then you have a simple benchmark to compare against when you're evaluating any given build focused on sustained damage.

Saying that Wizards don't do much damage but do other useful things is missing the point here a bit, IMO. The question is, what is the amount of damage you need to be doing for it to be a worthwhile contribution on its own. Wizards or Bards have better ways to contribute, so why would they even try to match the damage benchmark?

Anyway, for a featless game I think Hex + Agonizing Blast or Champion fighter with a Greatsword and GWF Style would be decent benchmarks (they're very close).
For a feated game, a longbow-wielding Champion with the Sharpshooter feat would probably be a decent benchmark.

In either case, if you're matching or exceeding the damage of the benchmark, you can probably feel good about having contributed nothing but damage.

As another user mentioned, using the Fighter is neat because you can also have a simple benchmark for evaluating Nova damage, which is just the Action Surge damage (double the benchmark, essentially)

This exactly. If you're dealing at or above Champion-built-for-damage, you're doing enough damage that you don't need to be shoring up other things in order to "pull your weight". That makes it a good baseline.
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Funny, that's the same answer the Points Per Game people made in response to those analysts saying PPG was overrated. They responded, for decades, that points is what wins the game and if you score more points than the opponent you win so it was the most important thing. They were wrong, but it took so very long for analytics to persuade people they were wrong. But finally, after decades, it's finally the consensus that the game is much more complex than the simplicity of that belief, with dozens of other factors, and it's measuring a combination of all the factors involved that leads to the "most important" stat.

And the same is for D&D. Damage is simplistic, it is subject to slogans like "dead is dead", and so it's the favored discussion point. Eventually, slowly, all the other factors will get factored in and we will get to advanced stats for D&D too. There are just too many actual statisticians and mathematicians who also like D&D that advanced stats (like Player Efficiency Ratings and Wins Above Replacement Player and stats like those) are inevitable. Though it will be more difficult as we don't have records of thousands and thousands of games to measure, nor consensus known best players through history as controls.

It's like the tired (and debunked) argument that doing more damage is always better in every scenario. Of course that's not true, because in a typical game, every resource isn't regenerated to full after every battle. In some cases, defense is better than offense. In basic math terms:

PC: has 20 HP, Avg dmg per round: 5
Monster: has 20 hp, avg dmg per round: 5

Assuming the PC always wins initiative, then he/she kills the monster in 4 rounds, suffering 15 HP of damage by the end of the battle.

Increase damage by 3 for the PC, and the PC kills the monster in 3 rounds, suffering 10 HP of damage by the end of battle

Decrease damage taken by 3 for the PC instead, and the PC kills the monster in 4 rounds, suffering 6 HP of damage by the end of the battle.

So while choosing defense over offense makes the round last one round longer, by the end, you still have more HP remaining for the rest of the day.
 


aco175

Legend
I think my group does less damage compared to more optimized groups, but we use flanking that makes hitting more often and may offset the lack of damage.

At 5th level now and the champion fighter base attack is 1d8+4 (no feats). The thief is 1d4+3 (+3d6 backstab). I think the fighter has +7 to hit and the thief +6 to hit. The ranger is a special build from another book and had extra damage on humanoids and some sort of extra attack so he has +6 to hit and deals 1d10+4 or +6 to humanoids. I find that a bit high, but suspect others will not.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Where are you getting these statistics from, may I ask?

Jeremy Crawford on Twitter, and DnDBeyond, have several times provided this information. Humans and Fighters are the most played race and class, and most people (by a wide margin) don’t take feats before 12th level, if at all.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Jeremy Crawford on Twitter, and DnDBeyond, have several times provided this information. Humans and Fighters are the most played race and class, and most people (by a wide margin) don’t take feats before 12th level, if at all.
Yeah, the same info that told them the ranger being unpopular was a phantom. Then they actually did a survey on it and... well, look how that turned out.
I trust my 8-ball (that I don't have) more than anything gathered from DnDBeyond statistics.
(And I'd consider a random hobo more sagely than Crawford, but that's neither here nor there.)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, the same info that told them the ranger being unpopular was a phantom. Then they actually did a survey on it and... well, look how that turned out.
I trust my 8-ball (that I don't have) more than anything gathered from DnDBeyond statistics.
(And I'd consider a random hobo more sagely than Crawford, but that's neither here nor there.)

What a wildly innacurate description of all of those things.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Odd since I specifically avoided drawing any conclusions that weren't outright stated.

They literally didn’t describe the ranger issues as a phantom. They stated that it was better to wait for the survey to avoid the risk of chasing phantoms, rather than assuming that the feedback would be the exact same as it was multiple years ago.

Also, the Ranger still doesn’t rank in the bottom rung of class popularity. So, yeah, ranger unpopularity is a phantom. Their data has shown them that ranger satisfaction issues are still alive and well, and given insight into what those issues specifically are, however.

Ya know, with data.

Your distrust of DDB data is silly and baseless, and the implication that it’s less reliable than a magic 8-ball is just flatly absurd. You trust your anecdotal observations over enormous data sets with professional analytics, go ahead. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously on that basis.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
They literally didn’t describe the ranger issues as a phantom. They stated that it was better to wait for the survey to avoid the risk of chasing phantoms, rather than assuming that the feedback would be the exact same as it was multiple years ago.

Also, the Ranger still doesn’t rank in the bottom rung of class popularity. So, yeah, ranger unpopularity is a phantom. Their data has shown them that ranger satisfaction issues are still alive and well, and given insight into what those issues specifically are, however.

Ya know, with data.

Your distrust of DDB data is silly and baseless, and the implication that it’s less reliable than a magic 8-ball is just flatly absurd. You trust your anecdotal observations over enormous data sets with professional analytics, go ahead. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously on that basis.

No, I trust "Ya know, [...] data."
Like the second survey they had that proved the DDB statistics (technically the reading of them) wrong, where it was still the least popular class, losing every single instance of the randomised "this vs that" section as well as being poorly rated overall. I can't quote you on that unfortunately though.
 

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