Classes and Roles: supply and demand

[Sadrik]

I think, and I am sure this is pretty controversial, that the controller and defender roles are pretty extraneous. In previous editions everyone strived to be the best striker and or a buffer and the best were both (CoDzilla).

Now in 4e the defender is just a weak striker who supposedly can take a beating more than the more true strikers and they give a penalty to those that they mark.

Controllers are um, I play one (wizard), in a class (or role as the case may be) all on their own. I have preferred to play wizards all the way back to 1e and now I play a wizard because that is what I do. But wow, I am underwhelmed and I look to all of the strikers in our group and we have 3 or 4 in a group of 7 with envy. Explain to me why a striker is going to move out of my spells way potentially drawing an OA so I can get my piddle damage spell off that may hit 2 guys if I can even hit? When they can lay more hurt on one of them.

Finally leaders are needed like in previous editions, not as much but I still feel that you need that one leader in the group for the healing. After that you could go straight strikers and have a pretty successful group. In my opinion, the only reason you play a defender or controller is nostalgia.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The fact is that in any point-based resolution system like D&D combat, there's only two things to do:

Take away enemy points

or

Stop your points from going away

The first is the striker, the last is the leader.

Defenders make it harder for enemies to take points away (you have to target the guy with the highest AC and HP, damage is harder to apply strategically).

Controllers...theoretically do that too (walls and clouds and statuses and the like controlling enemy movement and actions).

Those two just work against different quantities. Small groups of powerful foes = Defender, large groups of weak foes = Controller. Both of those features depend on a DM's whim.

Leaders both stop points from going away directly (healing) and also help you take points away better (buffs).

Strikers are damage and damage is sexy.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In a way, Defender and Controller are very related. The biggest difference is that the Controller makes it hard for the enemy to attempt scoring points, while the Defender makes the scoring less effective.

In game, the differents most strongly manifests by the fact that the Defender wants to be targeted, and the Controller doesn't want anyone to be target (and most definitely not him. ).

The Defender is giving the tools to get targeted and survive it, while the Controller is giving the tools to make targeting difficult.

 

[Primal]

Well, I never considered a geriatric ex-librarian before...

HEY! Don't you guys start badmouthing us geriatric librarians... we *DO* have some monk levels and ninja tricks as part of our training! And we're *not* boring... that's an old stereotype! My life is much more uh, exciting, er, than any of you can imagine... lots of shelf-climbing, for example!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

HEY! Don't you guys start badmouthing us geriatric librarians... we *DO* have some monk levels and ninja tricks as part of our training! And we're *not* boring... that's an old stereotype! My life is much more uh, exciting, er, than any of you can imagine... lots of shelf-climbing, for example!

As far as I know, our librarian in the Unseen University used to be a geriatric wizard. And he definitely astered the art of shelf-climbing a while ago. And we like it that way. Well, maybe not the Decan.

 

[StickPerson]

Interesting thread. I DM two groups, I've included deceased and departed characters in the calculation. Overall I feel that strikers are over designed, i.e. to good, or that the other classes, controller in particular, just weren't conceived as well as the rest. I wish the different roles had a more consistent appeal, as DM I'm already getting slightly bored silly with everyone wanting to play strikers all the time but understand the appeal.

Group 1 (6th level):
Dwarf axe and shield fighter (no longer in the campaign)
Human cleric (no longer in the campaign)
Elf archery ranger (about to leave the campaign)
Dragonborn sword shield fighter (about to leave the campaign)

Human charisma paladin
Shifter shaman
Halfling fey warlock (for story reason spent a brief stint as a warlord to cover a missing leader role in the group)
Shifter avenger
Human brutal rogue
Drow dark pact warlock / wizard (split personality PC starts some days as a warlock, some as a wizard)

Group 2 (2nd level):
Eladrin Wizard (no longer in the campaign)

Dragonborn great-weapon fighter
Elf two-weapon ranger
Eladrin tactical warlord
Halfling artful dodger rogue
Tiefling infernal warlock

So across the two groups the break down (not counting group 1's halflings stint as warlord and counting the split personality drow as half a striker and half a controller).
Defender: 4/16 = 25%
Leader: 3/16 = 18.75%
Striker: 7.5/16 = 46.875%
Controller: 1.5/16 = 9.375%

It's been my experience that players who start with a leader or controller get frustrated and eventually switch to a striker, and that the defenders tend to build their defenders as striker like as possible.

 

[Herschel]

Original Group:
New Group:
Minotaur Fighter (great weapon)

Wait, you talk of "core" races/classes, aren't using the Swordmage but allow a Minotaur as a PC?!?!?!!?

 

[Herschel]

Sorry, never gave my full group roster.
Come people changed characters or retrofitted them to other classes; this is what we have now:

Human Sorcerer (storm)
Human Swordmage (assault)
Human Rogue (ranged dagger)
Human Warlock (star)
Satyr (homebrew race) Bard

With the list you gave you may not have a primary controller, but the Swordmage, Bard, Warlock and even Sorcerer have secondary controller effects. That's 80% of the group that's essentially multiclassed as a controller.

 

[Tuft]

With the list you gave you may not have a primary controller, but the Swordmage, Bard, Warlock and even Sorcerer have secondary controller effects. That's 80% of the group that's essentially multiclassed as a controller.

Isn't that one of the problems for a "pure" controller?...

 

[CubeKnight]

Ah, right, let me add a small group I DMed for for around half a year:
Human Archer Ranger
Halfling Dodger Rogue
Dragonborn Balanced Paladin

The minion hordes caused headaches to no end for this group.