Classless d20 rules found! Get 'em while they're hot!

[kenjib]

I've looked it over and I think the feats need more pre-requisites (to keep abilities in a logical progression ). Such as:
Evasion
You are skilled at evading damage.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Tumble: 4+ ranks, Jump: 4+ ranks.
or something similar.

Agreed, and it also needs to address the problem with limiting access to more powerful feats. More powerful feats, like sneak attack, need much higher prerequisites, and they need to scale up with each extra level of sneak attack. As the rules stand now you can create a 1st level character with +12d6 sneak attack or a 20th level character with +26d6 sneak attack.

I used the d(20)liberation once or two, but I found it a bit too 'backengineered". I mean, it's a system done to try to conform to the standard classes, but as (IMHO) standard classes aren't done following a system (I think they are done "hand made" after lots of playtesting...) it looks a bit artificial...

I agree with this. I think that perhaps the best way to have done this would have been for WotC to design d20 as a classless system underneath, but then not exposed this in the PHB. You would still have classes in the PHB, but what they would really be would be a progression of predetermined choices for a person to follow to get a certain character archetype - fighter, cleric, rogue, etc. The underlying classless system would only be revealed in a core rulebook IV, which gives us the rules creating characters (and/or new predetermined archetype class paths) that are more flexible than the PHB ones.

 

[kenjib]

Oh, one other problem I have is that so far all of these systems seem to incorporate other agendas that the authors have or they alter the basic rules in some other way. For example, the magic system is fiddled with in d(liberation)20 and BaB progressions are fiddled with (+2-+4 BaB at 1st level for example), armor rules are fiddled with in CD20, and manadrive adds defense bonus and other stuff.

It would be nice to see a set that tries not to alter the actual d20 mechanics so much. Such a system would tie in more seamlessly with the rest of the game. i.e. it would still work with the monster manual, the CR system, and published modules, and classless and classed characters could co-exist more easily in the same game.

This factor alone makes me not want to give these systems the time of day. It's too much work. I just want a classless d20 system - if I want other variant rules also introduced then I'd like it to be a seperate issue rather than having them built into the system.

 

[Warchild]

I agree. These rules won't get any play with me or definitely not my players. They are a little much. I'll play the Hero System if i want to deal with complexity. Thats what its there for!! I don't see why anyone can't create an alternate point buy system for BAB, Saves, Hit Die, Abilities, Magic level you can access, Feats, Skills. Things like Sneak Attack and other abilities that need to scale(ex 1 point for +1 sneak attack, 3 for +2d6, 5 for +3d6....an example anyway). That way you have a harder time getting that 1 hit point warrior with a 20 BAB).
How powerful or experienced your characters depends on the points your DM starts you off with. Experience comes in the form of more character points.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I don't think the CCE drastically overcomplicates things for advanced players and GM's interested in custom class design, if you've got a few hours to spend fiddling and fine-tuning. The CCE is not meant to replace the traditional core classes but serves as a means to craft exactly the class you want (and can still afford). Most times you will not need the CCE, but sometimes you want to do something different, and that's where some free time and the CCE can come in as a guideline. Additionally, once you've created the class in the CCE, it works just like any core class and you have no need to consult the CCE for that particular class ever again. Thus, the CCE seems like the simplest and best choice out of these alternate systems for custom class creation. That's still not getting us to the classless and/or level-less system we are looking for, but its a nice band-aid to be able to slap on while we wait for such a thing to come into being. While 2.5e Skills & Powers/Spells & Magic got a bad rap, my group absolutely loved it and miss having that degree of control over character creation in 3e. 3e is otherwise better but we want our point-buy characters back!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

All these systems are pretty interesting, but they seem to drastically overcomplicate the system. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a classless, levelless system that keeps the best part of the d20 system (the relatively fast and easy to understand game mechanics) but isn't level-based D&D.

Try Pendragon.

I guess it would qualify as classless...because every character is a heroic knight.

(I do not actually know the system very well, but having browsed through some of its adventure material, it appears to use a "d20" BRP variant as its engine.)

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I heard good things about Pendragon's merits and flaws system. Pendragon is long OOP, though a game store an hour away has a horde of dusty Pendragon books still in their shrinkwrap...

 

[LostSoul]

Agreed, and it also needs to address the problem with limiting access to more powerful feats. More powerful feats, like sneak attack, need much higher prerequisites, and they need to scale up with each extra level of sneak attack. As the rules stand now you can create a 1st level character with +12d6 sneak attack or a 20th level character with +26d6 sneak attack.

I actually drew up all the rogue abilities as feats. Here are a few:

Sneak Attack I
You are skilled at making Sneak Attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex13+, Search: 4 ranks, Spot: 4 ranks.
+1d6. Only in light armour.

Sneak Attack II
You are skilled at making Sneak Attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Search: 6 ranks, Spot: 6 ranks, Sneak Attack I.
Another +1d6.

Same thing goes for Sneak Attacks III - X (where it maxes out).

The Search & Spot requirements set the level and fix it to either a Ranger or Rogue class. That's good enough for me; but maybe not everyone else.

 

[mmadsen]

Pendragon is long OOP, though a game store an hour away has a horde of dusty Pendragon books still in their shrinkwrap...

Out of print? No, just taken over by Green Knight Publishing. They sell a complete line of Pendragon products.

 

[kenjib]

The Search & Spot requirements set the level and fix it to either a Ranger or Rogue class. That's good enough for me; but maybe not everyone else.

I think that works great as long as the classless system still has cross class skills built into it. Other classes can only get it half as fast, and at twice the skill point cost.