Classless/Point Buy d20?

[The Black Kestrel]

I seem to remember that at least one publisher if not more puiblished a point buy/classless system for d20. Unfortunately my search-fu tehcnique is weak and I haven't been able to track down the product(s). If anyone remembers the name/publisher of said product(s) please post it here.

Thanks

 

[Jackelope King]

Not sure if you mean d20 as "for 3rd Edition D&D", but Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds is a classless, point-buy game using the core of the d20 system.

 

[Crothian]

Buy the Numbers

 

[Krensky]

There was also a Modern version (different author and company) titled Point Buy Numbers.

 

[The Black Kestrel]

Yep, "Buy the Numbers" was what I was thinking of. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[SSquirrel]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82858&highlight=Dr+Spunj's+classless

point buy version of core D&D and Arcana Evolved. Swaps in the AE magic system tho

 

[Angel Tarragon]

The now non-existant Red Leaf Games had their classes system for the D20 System as well; D(Liberation) 20 & Magefire.

These files were made freely available, but can no longer be found on the net.

 

[Derro]

Eclipse: The Codex Persona is good. But it is incredibly dense. The pdf will not do, you need hard copy. I made a few characters just with the pdf but to have a group use it would be a royal pain in the arse.

Word to the wise. Classless characters have real potential to break the system. It is very difficult to run out of the box D&D with classless characters. The potential for characters that are stupid powerful and characters that really suck is huge. But if you want classless chances are you're good at customizing a campaign so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

You can also download the Red Leaf bits this way:
http://web.archive.org/web/20051217170930/www.netflash.net/llanade/redleafgames/downloads.php

Besides Dr Spunj's system, and the Buy the Numbers (Point Buy Numbers for d20 Modern was a crappy re-hash of Buy the Numbers) there's not a whole lot out there actually. By and large the d20 community doesn't seem to have been interested in this.

There's Eclipse which can be gotten in a "shareware" edition (pay $10 later) here:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=51255&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=617

There of course is also the Anime SRD which is the SRD for BESMd20. BESMd20 gets (or got) plenty of hate though. Mainly because it's got some different sensibilities when it comes to its rules; it expects a lot more discussion between player and GM and isn't up to the standards of "balance" that many d20 folks demand.

You can still download the Anime SRD in rtf form here:
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/animesrd.html

To make sure it doesn't get lost I've got a copy of it and a couple of other bits uploaded to divShare. You can find the bits here:
http://www.divshare.com/download/4624454-4fd

And the folks of Evil Hat host a pdf version that one of 'em did up back in the day. You can find it here:
http://www.faterpg.com/dl/

By default BESMd20 does use classes, but going classless is as simple as having everyone take the "Adventurer" class, and then they buy up the specific bits that they want for the character. In fact, there was a pretty fun game (I recently finished running a year long campaign) called Everstone that started with this as a core. All the classes in it derived from the Adventurer and then have extra bits added in to make the different classes.

BESMd20 isn't perfect, but it's a pretty workable system actually.

There's a 3.0 thingy that used to have some traction called the Class Construction Engine. It might be of use depending on what you're after. You can find a copy of it here:
http://www.mortality.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Files&file=index&do=showpic&pid=545

And there's the 3.5 version of it which you can find here (direct links):
http://community3e.com/dn/class/3.5ClassConstruction.zip
http://files.meetup.com/47008/Class Construct v2.pdf

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Eclipse: The Codex Persona is good.

Doh. Scooped. Oh well.

Word to the wise. Classless characters have real potential to break the system. It is very difficult to run out of the box D&D with classless characters. The potential for characters that are stupid powerful and characters that really suck is huge. But if you want classless chances are you're good at customizing a campaign so take that with a grain of salt.

So this right here is the real crux of the problem...

If you're relying strictly on rules to adjudicate how things are going to play out in a classless system, yes you're going to have problems. D&D wasn't actually built in a consistent fashion, and further it's got the expectation of a specific number of characters with a particular make up of abilities.

It's possible to do a classless/point based game, but the GM and the players _have_ to actually work together on this. The players are going to have to accept some of that dreaded "GM fiat" where the GM says, "Look, I don't care if the rules say you can do that... you can't for this game." or "That's cool, but for the game I'm looking to run, I think you might want to change [this]". GMs on the other hand are going to have to be more flexible in their approach to things, and realize that it's potentially going to be much easier to kill the entire party.

Or that the entire party is going to be tougher than expected, owing to a greater range of competency.

The reason why people seem to have such crappy luck with point-buy systems in general (and especially in relation to d20) is that there is an expectation that if there's a bunch of numbers for something, well it means that everything is perfectly balanced against everything else. No matter what, you can have a broken/suck character. Heck cruise around the forums here, and you'll be able to find plenty of posts telling you which classes in the WotC books blow, and which classes will trash stuff.