Cleave - Automatic hits on 2nd target?

[Plane Sailing]

If you really can't bear the idea, I did see someone float the suggestion of the cleave damage only kicking in if the original attack roll would have hit the secondary target too.

As someone here has mentioned, minion defences are going to be about the same as their non-minion colleagues, so it would probably be a wash in any real game circumstances.

 

[HeinorNY]

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?
How is that not a problem?

My only beef with this is not that it does damage, but that it *automatically* does damage and doesn't make any sense why it should. I can see combats where the big bad NPC is afraid of standing next to minions because he might get cleaved, but can go toe-to-toe with the fighter without much fear because he has some incredbile AC or special ability... it's just hypothetical but it's so stupid it's laughable to auto hit something when you can't hit it by aiming at it.

You don't need to "hit" the enemy to inflict HP damage on him.
The adjacent enemy is not necessarily hit and wounded by your weapon, he just takes 3 points of damage. The damage can look like whatever the Hit Point general rule allows it to look like (wound, morale, weariness, loss of balance, and so on).

An "unhitable" creature is different from an "undamagable" creature, in D&D.

I still think 4e Cleave sucks.

 

[Caliban]

You don't need to "hit" the enemy to inflict HP damage on him.

The adjacent enemy is not necessarily hit and wounded by your weapon, he just takes 3 points of damage. The damage can look like whatever the Hit Point general rule allows it to look like (wound, morale, weariness, loss of balance, and so on).

I like to think of it as killing the minion next you with my innate awesomeness.

 

[Victoly]

If the OP thinks Cleave is such a problem, I'd hate to see what he thinks of Reaping Strike...

 

[DracoSuave]

The damage from cleave isn't affected by most feats, enhancement bonuses, or anything else, it ends up just being the straight Str mod of damage to a guy. It's basicly a minion killer -by design.- You can't mark the other guy with it, all you can do is some minor inconsequential damage that just happens to be enough to remove minions from the picture.

Picture those martial arts movies where the big bad and the main guy are scrapping, and one of the big bad's ninja mooks runs in to do some damage and gets hicked aside by the hero as little more than an after thought...

That's the idea behind cleave.

 

[Minigiant]

Many times you don't want minions anywhere near their boss. Them shadow and undead creatures eat allies and heal. And Demons and Devils....

 

[Lost in Thyme]

Question:Level 4 fighter, 18 Strength, Strength Mod +4.

Cleave Damage is 4?
Or
Cleave Damage is 6? Str Mod +1/2 Level.

I think it is just 4, but I'd like to be sure.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Cleave Damage is 4?

Just this (as in your weapon damage).

Generally, as a rule of thumb, you can memorize it like that: If it's a d20 roll or something directly opposing a d20 roll (as your defences), you get the 1/2 level bonus to your ability modifier, otherwise not.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Nikosandros]

Question:Level 4 fighter, 18 Strength, Strength Mod +4.

Cleave Damage is 4?
Or
Cleave Damage is 6? Str Mod +1/2 Level.

I think it is just 4, but I'd like to be sure.

It's 4. Damage isn't modified by level.

 

[Ahglock]

Theres your problem, you think 4E is supposed to make sense in a vaguely real-life with fantasy tacked on sort of way. It's not. You need to watch more children's cartoons, things like Naruto and Dragonball which will demonstrate the ridiculous concepts of automatic hits and healing surges.

I wanted it to be more Naruto like. I want people to be running across water and up walls basically at will. I want people to have maneuvers that are much more powerful than what is currently presented and be able to re-use the powers over and over if they want to. I want people to start knocking down walls with a single blow.

Basically I wanted a bigger leap in power between tiers and moves to be reusable as a default.