Cleric´s 2 skill points is pathetic.

[Bran Blackbyrd]

A pity that the class isn't really designed for it, then.

Maybe regular priests are just adepts? Who knows.

A red herring. Different people can have different responsibilities, but still answer to the same master.

That's why it's only an opinion, and not one I'm fervently attached to in any way.

D&D can easily be thought of as playing thugs in the ultimate gang war. If you choose to think of it that way, that's your business.

I was referring more to the war for the soul, not really D&D as a whole package, just that aspect of it.
Like the Spawn comic, or (dare I mention it?) the Blood War and everyone involved.

Anyway, I'm just trying to provoke thought. Millions of customers served...

Edit: BTW, if the deities could grow their champions in pods it would save a lot of trouble. Maybe some of the evil ones manufacture theirs, but I imagine the good ones might consider it cheating (or simply as defeating the purpose).
Pods, hehe...

 

[Rashak Mani]

I think you are all insane! Heal is not useful!?!? You know it can replace the saving throw for poison? That is a profound benefit.

Let's see, my 10th level rogue has +3 base and a +1 for CON, so +4 Fort save vs poison. Compare this save with the Heal check of of the 10th level cleric...+13 and a +3 for WIS, is a +16. For those serious poisons give me a healer.

PS

IF your Cleric is human and with INT he certainly will help you out a lot... in you SECOND saving throw ! So sorry for those CON points you lost on the FIRST dice roll... D&D is more than ever centered on Magic...

 

[Mordax]

Zerovoid:

Any across the board skill point increase cheapens the value of intelligence, and I think this is a bad thing.

And of course you've playtested that, right?

I did. +2 skill points for all.

The result:
People who wanted to play normal, competent characters didn't have to artificially pump up their Int, or play humans just to eke out a few extra points. Even better, some people took hobby skills instead of maxing everything out. I saw far more people take a Craft skill, for instance, or learn something interesting cross class.

People who wanted to be skill monkeys still bought extra Intelligence, or played classes with high base skill points.

Basically, it was the same as before, only not insanely restricted.

I suspect if you bothered to try it, the results would be about the same. (D&D is the only WotC game I know of where a class can actually have 2 skill points per level. Never happens in Star Wars, WoT or CoC.)

Rashak Mani:

IF your Cleric is human and with INT he certainly will help you out a lot... in you SECOND saving throw ! So sorry for those CON points you lost on the FIRST dice roll... D&D is more than ever centered on Magic...

Uhh...what?

First of all, Clerics can't spontaneously cast spells that cure poison. That means that they'll probably only have a couple of anti-poison spells prepared. I never set up more than that, personally.

That means that if a lot of party members take poison in a fight, they might have to wait a day or two to get fixed up (! ).

Next, those spells are very limited.

Lesser Restoration:
This only fixes 1d4+1 damage. That's about as good as fixing one missed saving throw for a weak poison (1d6 damage).

That means that if you make your second saving throw, the Cleric will probably use 1 less Lesser Restoration on you, and can help one of your buddies, instead.

Restoration:
If you get really messed up, a Cleric can always use this, but it costs diamonds. Most parties only carry so much of that, (and would rather save it for Stoneskin ), so they'll rely on Lesser Restoration instead.

*shrugs*
I don't understand people who say Healing is useless.

 

[Vaxalon]

If you were to create a bookish, scholarly, spell-casting priest, what multi-class combination would you use? Expert/Cleric sounds right, but I don't think anyone wants to pick up a less-powerful class. Rogue/Cleric doesn't sound right, either. (Sneak Attack?) Bard/Cleric? Why the arcane knowledge? (Although the Perform abilities are great for a missionary.)

What would you do?

New class: Priest

HD, saves, and BAB as wizard

6 skill points per level

BOTH domain spells can be cast each day, rather than choosing one.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Uh-huh

...take away the medium and heavy armor proficiencies, and you´ve got the typical bookish, learned priest that mainly tends to his flock and sometimes goes undead-bashing.

See...the difference to the cleric is simple. Of course the cleric is an agent of his deity...but the way he is presented in the PHB suggests the cleric rather as the traveling, active kind, who represents his deity by fulfilling quests, protecting it´s followers in distant, troubled regions, not by studying the books all day, giving the rituals of his church each day or tending to it´s flock. In comparison, the cleric rather is the "Holy Warrior" (in contrast to the paladin, who is more a "Righteous Warrior"), while the priest is rather the "Shepherd" of his community. They both serve the same deity...but both in different capacities

 

[Storminator]

IF your Cleric is human and with INT he certainly will help you out a lot... in you SECOND saving throw ! So sorry for those CON points you lost on the FIRST dice roll... D&D is more than ever centered on Magic...

Once you're 10th level the poisons you can expect to face can have 2d6 of secondary damage. I'll take all the hlp I can get!

I am also of the opinion that you can stretch you skill list pretty well by not maxing skills. One point short of max on a few skills gives you one more skill with a decent score.

PS

 

[Aaron L]

I've always thought that your average village pastor would be an expert, not a cleric, but possibly an adept.

 

[Crothian]

All skills don't need to be maxed. I've found, with the help of my group, that getting many skills up to about a +10 (includes ranks, attribute, synergy, etc) is about right for most normal things. Then there are the few skills that you do want maxed, but that's not as many as most people seem to think. I do run the game were all skills are important. I like to have a reason for the skills to be in the game, so I use them. Sometimes the party finds themselves in a situation were the skill they need no one has, but they are creative people (luckily they are gamers) and they can get around such obsticles.

I have found that allowing for extra skill points at level one for background skills is needed. That is something I do extra to allow the characters to be fleshed out more, though.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I definetly think everyone could use some more skill points, excpet maybe the cleric who already rules the universe from beyond the grave.

Seriously, those of you who make comments like well when its time to talk, those without skills should let the skilled people talk, or make the barbarian shut up while mr slick is talking are way off base. When a fight breaks out do any of the "skilled" people get up, leave and start watching tv so the fighter can do his job without any of you pathetic weaklings mucking things up. Somehow I doubt that it works that way. Every class should of been given enough skills and abilities to at least be competent out of combat in a variety of situations. At least clerics and mages can fake a lot of it with magic. But, that fighter better not open his mouth when anyone is interacting, or he better not try to walk quietly, or do anything else other than jump, and ride out of combat, unless you have some desire to play a game where all the adventures start becuase the fighter is so incompetent he screwed up again and got everyone mixed up in a new mess, stay tuned for next exciting episode with the adventurers and slack jaw the fighter.

 

[hong]

But, that fighter better not open his mouth when anyone is interacting, or he better not try to walk quietly, or do anything else other than jump, and ride out of combat, unless you have some desire to play a game where all the adventures start becuase the fighter is so incompetent he screwed up again and got everyone mixed up in a new mess, stay tuned for next exciting episode with the adventurers and slack jaw the fighter.

Someone with 0 ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information or whatnot is not an "incompetent". The average commoner has 0 ranks in Diplomacy, and yet manages to get through life without being continually thrown out of bars and such. All it means is that when it comes to delicate negotiations, fast-talking your way around a guard and other such matters where social skills are critical, there are better people than plain fighters to handle the job.

You do not need a Diplomacy skill check to get the king to tell you where the dragon who kidnapped the princess is. You _might_ need a Diplomacy skill check to convince the dragon to let the princess go because she's not worth the trouble. You _will_ need a Diplomacy skill check to avoid being killed by a rampaging princess if she finds out.

Besides which, a skill check shouldn't be a substitute for roleplaying. If a player manages to pull off some fiendishly clever negotiating or manipulating, I see nothing wrong with rewarding that with a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus to the roll. It's all a matter of what's fun for the group.