Cleric domain spells + metamagic?

[Ditch]

I really, really need some help here guys. A friend and I have been debating a few things back and forth and neither of us can come to a conclusion. Here are the topics that we are requesting your insight on:

When I start a new character at Wiz 1, he begins with a spellbook with all cantrips and a number of 1st level spells equal to 3+ INT mod. This represents his time in training, comonly as an apprentice.

When my Rog 1 decides to take his second level in Wizard, does my Rog 1/Wiz 1 get the free spellbook? Or does he have to pay (wow!) 100g per cantrip (there are 19 in the PHB alone, btw) and another 100g per 1st level spell contained within the spellbook? If this is the case, that is a crazy amount of money to lose (about 2,500 gp) for not picking Wiz at first level. I'm thinking those extra skill points and a couple of HP's come at a high price. Also, I understand that you don't "have" to buy all the spells, but that's beside the point.

OK, this one regards clerics and domain spells... A party of mine ran into a drow cleric with her patrol at around 12th level. During the fight she cast Chaos Hammer. Then she cast Chaos Hammer. Our Aasimar Paladin wasn't looking so good, so she cast Chaos Hammer... again. I'm about ready to choke someone by this point! Isn't this a domain only spell (Chaos 4)??? Of course, replied the DM. She mem'd it as her 4th level domain spell and then heightened it into her 5th and 6th level domain spell slots with a metamagic feat. I cried foul, but I still haven't found anything concrete saying that she couldn't do just what she did. BTW, we nearly TPK'd from an equal EL encounter, so I'm thinking this tactic is questionable, if it's legal at all. :\

Any comments or insights will be greatly appreciated. Anyone who can provide references to back up their reasoning will be even more appreciated!

Thanks In Advance,
Ditch

 

[Hypersmurf]

The spellbook is a class feature of the 1st level of Wizard. As written, even if the Rog1 levels to Rog1/Wiz1 in the middle of the wilderness, he gets a spellbook.

Regarding the metamagicked Domain spells: last time I asked the Sage about this one, he said something along the lines of "It's not specifically catered for in the rules, but I don't see anything wrong with it."

Strictly: With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. So no. If the cleric had the Chaos and Evil domains, then she must prepare either Dispel Good or Dispel Law each day in her 5th level domain slot.

But as a DM, I've always allowed someone to prepare a lower level domain spell in a higher level domain slot, or a metamagicked domain spell in a higher level domain slot.

-Hyp.

 

[Hadrian]

While I can’t find anywhere that the rules specifically say one way or another, when you get your first level in wizard, regardless of whether or not it’s at character creation, I would personally rule that you’d get the spellbook. After all, your character would be going through all of the same training.


As for your second point, I can’t offer such good news for you. There’s no reason that I can find to keep anyone from applying metamagic to their domain spells, providing they’ve the higher level slots available. Moreover, the cleric in question wouldn’t even need to metamagic them; you can always use higher level slots for lower level spells.

 

[Shin Okada]

Same answer as above 2 posters.

Rogue 1/Wizard 1 will get a spellbook by the RAW. And I don't see any problem. Maybe he has been working on his spellbook for a long time and just finally finished it. Before that, that "book" was just a worthless personal note which did not need to be recorded as his equipment.

And while there is no rule text specifically suggest it, I don't see any reason why a cleric cannot use his 5th and 6th level domain slots for preparing Chaos Hammer (heightened or not).

By the way, if 2 Chaos Hammer spells are so effective against that 12th-level (?) party, something seems to be wrong. I mean, those PCs are ridiculously weak, or maybe just miserably unlucky?

 

[Vegepygmy]

FWIW, the 3.0 FAQ says the domain spell thing is kosher:

The Player's Handbook says that a cleric prepares one or the other of the two domain spells available to the character at each level each day. This implies that the cleric cannot prepare a lower-level domain spell in a higher-level slot. It also implies that a cleric cannot use metamagic feats on a domain spell since that would require a higher-level slot. Wizards who have specialized in a school of magic would seem to face a similar restriction. Is that what was intended?

No, that's not what was intended, though the wording of the rules certainly implies that is the case. Each domain slot can hold a spell only from one of the cleric's domains, but a cleric can use metamagic on domain spells (which makes them fill higher-level slots), or the cleric can simply prepare a domain spell in a higher-level domain slot. Specialist wizards can likewise fill their bonus spell slots with lower-level spells or with metamagicked spells, provided the spells are from the wizard's specialty school.

 

[Ditch]

Good work! Thanks a ton guys. This helps clear up a lot of what was bugging our campaign.


Chaos Hammer:
Effects only Neutral and Lawful peeps. Does 1d8 per two levels (max 5d8) to Lawful or 1d6 per level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders and slows them for 1d6 rounds (gives -2 AC, Attac, Ref saves and they can take only 1 action each round). Will save for half and no slowing.

It was actually 3x Chaos Hammmers back-to-back, which were basically only hitting us, not the drow patrol. Our main tank was an Aasimar paladin. He's considered a "lawful outsider" and look what this spell does to him, 3x in a row. Not to mention the rest of the party was LG or LN, except for the Rogue who was feared on round one by a gaze attack... /sigh. Our party wasn't weak in the least, but fighting in the tight quarters of the underdark and taking what was effectively fireball damage to the face, that didn't touch the drow's minions as they melee'd with us, was a bit much. In a fight that was 5 level 12's vs. 5 level 12's, this spell pushed the fight in their favor by a huge margin. Not only mem'ing the spell in a higher slot, but hieghtening the DC with a metamagic feat was just nasty, nasty, nasty.

 

[Shin Okada]

In a fight that was 5 level 12's vs. 5 level 12's

Oh, I see. Same number of opponents of the same level as PCs? So Encounter level = effective party level +4 (or more if the DM is using 12th-level drows, which are CR 13). Then that is possible. PCs are meant to lose in 50% chance.