Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with an Elf

[Riley37]

Gods are basically forces of nature. They stand for what they stand for.

Every school of theology can close, now that you've explained the nature of the Divine, settling the question for all time.

 

[Maxperson]

But gods don't relate to their followers directly. Especially not when their followers are like in tiers 1-3. Clerics and other religious folk might receive divine magic, but they have no idea who actually is *giving* it to them. Sometimes it might be avatars, some times it might be the angelic servitors of the gods. Which means none of them have a direct line to their supreme being to get it straight from the horses mouth what the god actually wants. As a result, people do what people do... they make their own decisions about what they think is right. And often times they will disagree.

You seem to be taking the 2e/3e position on gods, where they use servitors to give spells to their followers. That's fine. However, the gods also are aware of all of their clerics and what those clerics do, regardless of level. While Gruumsh may not be giving spells directly to that cleric, he is aware that the cleric is perverting what he stands for. Also, clerics do relate directly to their gods. They follow their god's ethos religiously(heheh).

From the 5e PHB...

"As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities. No ordinary priest, a cleric is imbued with divine magic."

and...

"When a cleric takes up an adventuring life, it is usually because his or her god demands it. Pursuing the goals of the gods often involves braving dangers beyond the
walls of civilization, smiting evil or seeking holy relics in ancient tombs."

As you can see, the clerics are all about doing the god's will and acting in accordance with their god's wishes.

I mean heck... how many different sects of Christianity are there? Dozens upon dozens. And every single one thinks they have the "right" ideas about what God wants and expects. And even when certain individuals received direct communication from God, everyone after them still argued about the communication, generations past that then misinterpreted things, and then even got into holy wars about it.

First off, real world religions need not apply. If God only granted Protestants clerical powers, you wouldn't see most of the other sects as it would be clear which path is correct. Second, all christians follow christ as lord and savior, love their brothers, etc. Where they vary is in the details of following the primary edicts of Christ. You don't see a sect of christianity that worships satan, or doesn't believe in Jesus, which is the equivalent of the gruumsh issue. Third, I already addressed this above with my Thor example. You might have a sect that believes thunder storms are Thor's favorite, and another that things tornadoes are his favorite. You aren't going to find one that things that peaceful solutions to the world's problems is a good way to follow Thor.

So like I said... you might run things black-and-white where a god says and wants one thing and one thing only, and every single worshipper knows exactly what that is and they all walk in lockstep to the same exact drummer to make sure that one thing is done. The god speaks, the cleric answers with no misinterpretation. Which is fine! Go nuts!

No. I run things in shades of grey. What you are suggesting is that we fit hot pink into this and call it grey.

 

[Maxperson]

Every school of theology can close, now that you've explained the nature of the Divine, settling the question for all time.

Bringing real world theology into a discussion about D&D gods is kinda ridiculous. In D&D, gods have often been described and/or portrayed as incarnations of their portfolios. Their very nature is what they represent in the game world. Essentially forces of nature.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is exactly why I used this particular comparison - thank you for noticing!

Churchill allied with Stalin against Hitler. Gruumsh might become aware of an imminent threat from Nyarlathotep, and thus decide to ally with Corellon Larethian. If Gruumsh and Corellon have each other blocked on direct messaging, then Gruumsh might actively WANT a cleric who's in the same party as an elf, to establish a line of negotiation, on the basis of that cleric and that elf working together on a smaller scale.

My current main PC is paladin of Ancients and warlock with Archfey patron, in the same party as a warlock with Raven Queen patron. The two patrons have a shared enemy, a necromancer is an offense against life itself (according to the Archfey) and a threat to death itself (according to the Raven Queen). If those two can work together...


See also, Darmok and Jelad at Tanagra.

Yes, this was one of my thoughts as well. The GM can EASILY create an 'enemy of my enemy' scenario, which should transcend any level of hatred. Of course interesting things happen when the alliance has outlived its usefulness (I think only A-bombs curbed that in the case of Stalin and Churchill).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But gods don't relate to their followers directly. Especially not when their followers are like in tiers 1-3. Clerics and other religious folk might receive divine magic, but they have no idea who actually is *giving* it to them. Sometimes it might be avatars, some times it might be the angelic servitors of the gods. Which means none of them have a direct line to their supreme being to get it straight from the horses mouth what the god actually wants. As a result, people do what people do... they make their own decisions about what they think is right. And often times they will disagree.

I mean heck... how many different sects of Christianity are there? Dozens upon dozens. And every single one thinks they have the "right" ideas about what God wants and expects. And even when certain individuals received direct communication from God, everyone after them still argued about the communication, generations past that then misinterpreted things, and then even got into holy wars about it.

So like I said... you might run things black-and-white where a god says and wants one thing and one thing only, and every single worshipper knows exactly what that is and they all walk in lockstep to the same exact drummer to make sure that one thing is done. The god speaks, the cleric answers with no misinterpretation. Which is fine! Go nuts!

But don't think for a moment that every other person thinks and does run their gods in that way. Because some of us feel that running the human (and humanoid) beings that worship those gods that way is kinda ridiculous.

Right, and even beyond this, I still say all the Gruumsh lore is Elvish PR! So, basically, if you want 'Cartoon Evil' to be the word of the day in your campaign, then sure, orcs are just these slavering maniacs who worship brute power, eat babies, etc. OTOH maybe its not so cut-and-dried! Maybe the ORCS view of things is that the elves are a bunch of racist orcicidal bastards! They may well feel like they didn't start it, but they're darn well going to finish it. Sure they're tough, harsh, cruel, that's life! They got the short end of the stick, and they chewed it into a sharp spear and jabbed someone with it in retaliation. Actually, if you go read the 'Gruumsh' entry in the old Deities and Demigods, or the 2e Nonhuman Mythos book, that's pretty much what the orcs seem to be saying!

In other words, outside of cartoons, nobody actually lives to BE evil. At most they adopt a very hostile and belligerent kind of persona, but at the core of any philosophy like that is a desire to make things right! The only question is, what is your definition of right...

 

[Riley37]

Second, all christians follow christ as lord and savior, love their brothers, etc. Where they vary is in the details of following the primary edicts of Christ. You don't see a sect of christianity that worships satan, or doesn't believe in Jesus, which is the equivalent of the gruumsh issue.

There's significant gaps in your understanding of Christianity. I suspect that you haven't read Parker's essay on the transient and the permanent, for example.

This leaves me disinclined to accept you as an undisputed authority on the relationship between Gruumsh, Corellan, and their respective worshippers.

 

[Maxperson]

There's significant gaps in your understanding of Christianity. I suspect that you haven't read Parker's essay on the transient and the permanent, for example.

This leaves me disinclined to accept you as an undisputed authority on the relationship between Gruumsh, Corellan, and their respective worshippers.

That you would pull that simplified explanation out of my post in order to avoid actually responding to my argument is telling.

 

[Oofta]

So a lot of people have stated how they run in it in their campaign, which is fine.

But what are the basic assumptions if you just follow the books? What the players would normally expect unless you've declared house rules?

So, what do the books say about this topic?

MM

Gruumsh One-Eye. Orcs worship Gruumsh, the mightiest of the orc deities and their creator. The orcs believe that in ancient days, the gods gathered to divide the world among their followers. When Gruumsh claimed the mountains, he learned they had been taken by the dwarves. He laid claim to the forests, but those had been settled by the elves. Each place that Gruumsh wanted had already been claimed. The other gods laughed at Gruumsh, but he responded with a furious bellow. Grasping his mighty spear, he laid waste to the mountains, set the forests aflame, and carved great furrows in the fields. Such was the role of the orcs, he proclaimed, to take and destroy all that the other races would deny them. To this day, the orcs wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk.

Orcs hold a particular hatred for elves. The elven god Corellon Larethian half-blinded Gruumsh with a well-placed arrow to the orc god’s eye. Since then, the orcs have taken particular joy in slaughtering elves.

PHB

Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities. No ordinary priest, a cleric is imbued with divine magic.
...
Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.

Volo's

Gruumsh, “He Who Watches”
Gruumsh, the undisputed ruler of the orc pantheon, pushes his children to increase their numbers so they may be his instrument of revenge against the realms of elves, humans, and dwarves. In order to spite the gods who spurned him, Gruumsh leads his orcs on a mission of ceaseless slaughter, fueled by an unending rage that seeks to lay waste to the civilized world and revel in its anguish.

Seems pretty black and white to me.

If you make house rules that change the nature of the game you should be clear about that. If you allow feats, but ban (or modify) Sharp Shooter, just let everyone know and things are fine. Orcs are just misunderstood noble savages? Gods are just some nebulous concept and clerics don't really have to "strive to embody the handiwork of their deities"? Great, as long as it's established up front.

In my own campaign, I tell people that Odin is obsessed with winning Ragnarok and some people believe he was driven half mad by the death of his favored son Baldur. That he is now true neutral and (unlike the PHB entry) will take followers of any alignment. Some clerics cherish the NG aspects of Odin as the loving father figure, others venerate the god of war and the gallows who sometimes causes great warriors to fall in battle because he wants them at his side.

But that's something I explicitly tell people as part of my background and session 0.

 

[Riley37]

Seems pretty black and white to me.

I agree. The elven and dwarven gods took everything for themselves, with no regard for others. That's how the PHB defines "evil". I see no shades of grey in this story: they committed an evil action, and Gruumsh reacts as a Paladin of Vengeance.

First they took all the lands, without self-restraint or compassion, then they *laughed* at Gruumsh. On the day that the elves stop denying the forests to orcs, then Gruumsh will cease hostilities against the elven lands. When the dwarves decide to share the mountains with orcs, then Gruumsh will make peace with the dwarven settlements. Until then, orcs will "take and destroy all that the other races would deny them", as you have so clearly established with your canonical source material quotations. Gods and mortals are both most dangerous when they have nothing left to lose.

If you consider Gruumsh evil, then you must also consider Nelson Mandella evil. Which, at this point, would not surprise me.

Are you going to justify the actions of the elven and dwarven gods? Oh, go ahead and try; this will be amusing.

 

[Riley37]

That you would pull that simplified explanation out of my post in order to avoid actually responding to my argument is telling.

That you would represent Christianity so inaccurately, and then claim parallels to Gruumsh, is telling. Have you *ever* been wrong? Is there *any* topic on which you don't have absolute and infallible answers?