Clerics Hurting to Heal

[Kingreaper]

Sort of: I can grok hitting a dude and giving him -2 to defenses.

It is harder for me to grok hitting a dude and giving all allies +2 to hit it.

It's kind of the same, mathematically. But the difference between "I hit you and you are weaker" and "I hit you and suddenly everyone can hit you!" is wide, psychologically. It feels far too gamist to me to be enjoyable.

So you don't like the concept of "look, this is how you do it!"

or "Hey, he's leaving his left flank wide open." *whack* "See?"

 

[vaultdweller]

The OP should take a look at The White Mage - The Healic Guide for advice on this. I'm not a fan of such builds - I don't like to play them, I don't like to DM for them, and I don't like to be in a party with them - but if it's what the player wants, that's the best place he can look for advice on making it happen.

1.) The cleric should only use HW on a character AFTER they have second winded.
2.) Everyone should consider picking up Cloak of the Walking Wounded as their neck items.

I disagree here. Unless you've got Dwarves or Wardens (or Dwarf Wardens!) in the party, Second Wind should generally be a last, desperate resort, only used when healing from the Leader is unavailable. Eating a standard action is a very heavy cost unless you heavily optimize for Second Winds.

If your party needs more healing, you'll want to encourage them to stock up on potions.

Potions can get you through in a pinch, but the amount of healing they give out is probably less than your surge value, and definitely far less than healing you could get from a healer. It's often not worth the actions you have to sacrifice to use a potion. For dual-wielders, the option is not even on the table unless they've got some quick-draw and quick-stow functionality somewhere - a Ranger with a sword in each hand has to spend one Minor action to sheathe one of his swords, one Minor action to retrieve the potion, one Minor action to drink the potion, and one Minor action to pull his sword back out. That's four minor actions for 10 HP (heroic tier healing potion). Even if you use an AP, that consumes all of your actions for a turn. You can cut it down to three actions if you drop your weapon on the ground (free action) instead of sheathing it, but that still consumes an entire turn if you don't use an Action Point.

 

[mneme]

Indeed. Second winds are a desperation play. The best way to heal the party is to prevent them from being injured (by controlling the monsters, or by knocking all their hitpoints out); typically, a striker spending her turn attacking will prevent more damage than spending her turn using second wind.

Re ranger--can do it in 3. free action: drop a weapon, minor actions for draw a potion, drink it, and pick up the weapon. Of course, with some item support and a friendly GM, you can cut this down to 1 -- tie the weapon on with a lanyard (prior to combat), drop it (free action), draw a weapon from a potion bandolier (free action), drink it (minor action), re-wield the weapon hanging from your wrist (free action). Can get the same effect by using a spiked shield as your off-hand weapon (or being warforged), though you lose some damage that way.

In general, D&D4 hit points work better conceptually if you don't think of damage as physical damage, but advantage -- how close your side is to losing the fight, not wounds.

As such, there's nothing wrong with paladin or cleric healing smites--you hearten your allies, or you dedicate the foe to your god and the god grants healing (but only if you give them something they can work with),

Seriously, just treat it as a creative challenge. Work it into the narrative, describing how your strike/magic is going to heal your allies as it damages your foes. If it fails, turn it around and describe how the enemy stops both the healing and the strike; it's not hard.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Everyone has their own internal criteria for deciding when an ability is "too gamey" or "just right," and for some people that criteria might be more stringent than others. For my part, I usually explain "attack-to-heal" powers in one of two ways. First, the attack results in an inspiring burst of energy, as is the case for many warlord abilities). Second, the attack is a necessary component to release the magic of the heal, much like the somatic component for a spell (I use this to "explain" paladin and warpriest "attack-to-heal" abilities).

These explanations are enough for me, but, as it took a conscious effort over a period of time for me to accept them, I can see why they might not be good enough for others.

 

[mneme]

Nahat: Fair enough, but keep in mind that:

1. You don't have to be consistent. The game elements deliniate what kinds of things the characters are typically capable of, but there's no reason not change up the mechanisms by which they accomplish this, any more than a fighter always has to swing at an opponent's torso (or whatever) with brute strike.

2. The simplest approach is probably to tie them as a manuver, not a single spell at all. If you can buy martial powers, I don't see any reason why a rote cleric manuver can't be "I'll bash this guy and while he's off balance, heal my friend -- which succeeds or fails as a unit just as a fighter's "I'll bash this guy and knock him off balance so that he can't make a move without my being constantly on his tail--if it doesn't hit, I'll still be watching him, but it won't work as well (villain's menace).

 

[666Sinner666]

I disagree here. Unless you've got Dwarves or Wardens (or Dwarf Wardens!) in the party, Second Wind should generally be a last, desperate resort, only used when healing from the Leader is unavailable. Eating a standard action is a very heavy cost unless you heavily optimize for Second Winds.

I understand what your saying but at the same time I was trying to give the OP options beyond "have the party get lots of potions" and "rebuild his character according to XYZ". These are stock replys and obvious solutions. My suggestions may not be the most optimal options or easiest solutions but it works with what is there without changing much.

@OP: What is the rest of the party make up by the way?

 

[FireLance]

After running my first 4E game a while back, one of the players found one bit not to his liking....as a cleric (Essentials: Sun), he had abilities to heal others, but it seemed like a lot of his powers keyed off an attack - not simply an EFFECT that happens, but truly dependent upon him whacking someone else to heal a friend. He stated, and I agree, that it seems a little goofy.

I don't understand how you got that impression.

The Sun warpriest at-will attacks (blessing of battle and brand of the sun) all grant their benefits as Effects.

Most of the Sun warpriest encounter attacks (sun burst, resurgent sun, and their higher-level equivalents) also grant their benefits as Effects. The only other Sun warpriest encounter attacks (searing brand, and its higher level equivalent, overwhelming light) only blind the target on a Hit and have no Effect, but that seems reasonable to me.

In fact, the Sun warpriest seems specifically designed to ensure that he can heal and enhance his allies without needing to hit an enemy first.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So you don't like the concept of "look, this is how you do it!"

or "Hey, he's leaving his left flank wide open." *whack* "See?"

It's something of a timing issue in these cases, since in between the leader's turn and an ally's turn you might very well have the turn of the creature whose "weakness was just exposed," and that creature can't do anything to undo the bonuses the leader has given the allies.

If the sequence of events goes:

Leader: *smack* "He's open!"
Monster: "Apparently I am open and can do nothing about this!"
Party Member: "He's still open!" *smack*

....yeah, that breaks me out of the fiction of the game.

On the other side, the leader granting an attack with a bonus at that point doesn't really break the fiction.

Leader: *smack* "He's open! Billy, wail on him!"
Party Member: *free action smack* "Great! I have taken advantage of an opportunity!"

Works just fine.

It gets weirder when things like temp HP or healing or saving throws are involved.

Leader: *smack* "Because I stabbed that guy, you can try and throw off that poison, Billy!"
Monster: "Rargh!"
Party Member: "Um....okay..."

It's a problem with specific power mechanics, not an endemic problem to the system at all. Which is lucky, so that when I play, I can avoid choosing classes and powers that have that weirdness.

Though this is why I have trouble playing warpriests and artificers, since a lot of their powers key off of attacks that buff for some reason.

 

[phloog]

I don't understand how you got that impression.

The Sun warpriest at-will attacks (blessing of battle and brand of the sun) all grant their benefits as Effects.
(snip)

In fact, the Sun warpriest seems specifically designed to ensure that he can heal and enhance his allies without needing to hit an enemy first.

Well, let me start by saying again this was my FIRST running of the game, and was basing this on his description of his powers/cards. It is possible he misunderstood that "Effect" happens regardless, which could invalidate a huge amount of his issues.

Even so, I also like Mneme (I believe) saying "I'll bash this guy and while he's off balance, heal my friend -- which succeeds or fails as a unit" as a way to rationalize those that are 'hurt to heal'

But stepping back, I'm beginning to think that I just have a player who read "Effect" as being the same as a "Hit" result.

 

[Primal]

Honestly, one of my biggest beefs with almost every leader class is this wacky mechanical notion of "I hit an enemy, and everyone feels better!" Warpriests are big offenders.

KM, I know what you meant (hitting an enemy cures PCs of wounds), but I just had to say that it does make me feel better if somebody whacks my enemies in a fight.