War Domain is one of the most popular in my experience. Anyhow, I like how the Cleric can do a little of everything and it is a really strong class mechanically and I find that they are fun to roleplay. The alignment restriction is good, too. The one thing I don't like is how they are so front loaded. Take 2 domains and get the powers and bonus spells. Cast in full armor right away. After that why stay cleric 1-20? Turning sucks after about level 10 anyhow so if you aren't trying to break divine metamagic whats the point? It has the same problem of the sorcerer. After your domains or familiar it is stupid to not find a class that fits your character that offers full casting progression with easy prereqs. Just look at the class if you haven't played one in a while. Besides casting that is 19 straight levels of nulls.
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Clerics - What do you LIKE and DISLIKE?
- Thread starter TheLe
- Start date
Lord Lucifer
First Post
What do I like about clerics?
They can heal to keep the party going.
What do I dislike about clerics?
They can heal to keep the party going.
Sometimes, just sometimes, I like to play games where injured people actually stay injured for a while, where death means something, and where fights should maybe be avoided because life rests on skill and luck rather than resource management.
On these occassions, Clerics break that atmosphere.
If you've just been criticalled by a GreatAxe-wielding Orc Barbarian in a fit of rage, however... well, it's these occassions I'm REAL glad I made sure to be nice to the resident Cleric.
They can heal to keep the party going.
What do I dislike about clerics?
They can heal to keep the party going.
Sometimes, just sometimes, I like to play games where injured people actually stay injured for a while, where death means something, and where fights should maybe be avoided because life rests on skill and luck rather than resource management.
On these occassions, Clerics break that atmosphere.
If you've just been criticalled by a GreatAxe-wielding Orc Barbarian in a fit of rage, however... well, it's these occassions I'm REAL glad I made sure to be nice to the resident Cleric.
resistor
First Post
Biggest Pro:
A cleric can always be useful in combat, even for a beginning player who has no idea of how to use his abilities. He can always contribute meaningfully as a healer. Compare this to most arcane classes which require a better understanding of strategy in order to be an effective member of the combat team.
A cleric can always be useful in combat, even for a beginning player who has no idea of how to use his abilities. He can always contribute meaningfully as a healer. Compare this to most arcane classes which require a better understanding of strategy in order to be an effective member of the combat team.
Brother MacLaren
Explorer
I see clerics as the holy warriors -- the paladin did kind of step on the cleric's toes a bit when he came along.drothgery said:
As to the priests and administrators, they could just be Experts, maybe performing works on an as-needed basis if the stars are right, the prayers are done properly, the petitioner is devout, and the deity feels like it. (Hey, they're not PCs, so their lives can be even more subject to the whims of the gods and they won't go storming off.)
Kurashu
First Post
Pretty much everything I like and dislike has been covered, but for the record:
Likes:
Spellcasting (even in armor, how divine =P)
Spontaneous Healing (or hurting if you're evil)
Domains (could be better done though, also there are TOO many ocean & water?)
Dislikes:
Instant Knowledge of Supplement Spells (even though I play a cleric, I think this is a Bad Idea)
Turn/Rebuke Undead (Complete Divine rules are good though, or at least an opposed will/fort save)
Lack of Class Features
Lake of Skill Points (This is the same for the Wizard too, maybe not the Sorc though)
I'm thinking about reworking the cleric class.
Likes:
Spellcasting (even in armor, how divine =P)
Spontaneous Healing (or hurting if you're evil)
Domains (could be better done though, also there are TOO many ocean & water?)
Dislikes:
Instant Knowledge of Supplement Spells (even though I play a cleric, I think this is a Bad Idea)
Turn/Rebuke Undead (Complete Divine rules are good though, or at least an opposed will/fort save)
Lack of Class Features
Lake of Skill Points (This is the same for the Wizard too, maybe not the Sorc though)
I'm thinking about reworking the cleric class.
Vanuslux
Explorer
I only have one serious beef with the cleric and that is the fact that to me cleric spells should represent miracles and blessings and those to me should be spontaneously granted rather than having a cleric pray to their diety every morning with a shopping list of miracles ("I'll take Detect Poison, 2 Virtues, and Shield of Faith, amen."). Unfortunately every attempt at a spontaneous divine caster I've seen has fallen flat.
luke_twigger
First Post
Clerics are my favourite class and many of my 3.X PCs have been Clerics. But I dislike the fact that most Clerics end up very similar in terms of spells.
A Cleric has a large number of generic spells with only a small selection of domain spells. I think it should be the other way round.
I think all clerics should be given a small selection of core spells e.g. Detect Magic, Cure Light Wounds, etc. Expanded Domain Lists should then provide the rest of their spell power.
That would better differentiate a cleric of a sun god from a cleric of a necromantic god, etc.
A Cleric has a large number of generic spells with only a small selection of domain spells. I think it should be the other way round.
I think all clerics should be given a small selection of core spells e.g. Detect Magic, Cure Light Wounds, etc. Expanded Domain Lists should then provide the rest of their spell power.
That would better differentiate a cleric of a sun god from a cleric of a necromantic god, etc.
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
There's so much I dislike about Clerics I don't really know where to begin. Alot of my dislike of them comes from the fact that, unlike any other class, they are almost an absolute requirement to have in a party. A Druid can substitute somewhat, but usually can't cut it as the primary healer for a group.
The problem, at least as I see it, comes down to the core design of the game. Since clerical healing has always been assumed to be present in a party, the game was balanced around it. Characters will take alot of damage, but it's ok because there's supposed to be a Cleric there to patch them up. Imagine playing a difficult adventure without a healer at all and you will see exactly what I mean. Assuming you even survive a battle at all, you will suffer enormous amounts of downtime as you try to heal your injuries with rest. And some ailments can't be cured without magic - period (the chaos beast is a good example).
Some may think this turns out being good for Clerics. After all, they will always be welcome in a group. However, it also deligates a Cleric into the healing role. Many, if not most of his spells will be spent on healing. This usually leads to few people wanting to play the class, but again, since it's necessary for success, somebody has to. No other class is as important or inexpendable to a group. I've seen groups do just fine without a tank or arcane spellcaster or rogue. While every class brings something useful to the table, only the Cleric brings something that is vital.
So to try and "encourage" people to play Clerics, they made them the most overpowered class in the game. Let's just stop and compare them to the Wizard, for example. Most people would assume that the Wizard should be, if not the best, at least tied as the most powerful spellcaster, since their class is so single-mindedly devoted to that role and are terribly poor at everything else. Clerics not only have at least as good of spells as Wizards, they get more of them per day, including a bonus spell of each level which, unlike a Wizard, they don't have to give up anything to have. Clerics get to wear even heavy armor and cast spells in it. Clerics have a better attack bonus. They get two good saving throws compared to the Wizard's one. They get a d8 instead of d4 HD. And now with domains, Clerics can get access to some of the best Wizards spells as well. And to top it all off, Clerics learn every spell automatically and for free, while Wizards are stuck with the handicap of a spellbook and the enormous expense and chore of finding new spells. So not only are Clerics superior spellcasters, they are superior to Wizards in pretty much every other way as well. Thanks to their buffs they can outfight fighters. They can outcast Wizards. And they can heal. They can even cheat death, which IMO is one of the most anti-dramatic things about this game, but that is a rant for another time. Clerics used to at least have the drawback of having to serve a diety, but in 3.0 that restriction was also tossed to the wind.
But yet, despite this enormous carrot hung out in a desperate attempt to lure people into playing Clerics, I've known very, very few people who actually enjoy playing the class. To me, the Cleric class represents the worst of D&D. But since they are so ingrained into the system, since everything is balanced around their existence, I'm afraid that they are here to stay.
The problem, at least as I see it, comes down to the core design of the game. Since clerical healing has always been assumed to be present in a party, the game was balanced around it. Characters will take alot of damage, but it's ok because there's supposed to be a Cleric there to patch them up. Imagine playing a difficult adventure without a healer at all and you will see exactly what I mean. Assuming you even survive a battle at all, you will suffer enormous amounts of downtime as you try to heal your injuries with rest. And some ailments can't be cured without magic - period (the chaos beast is a good example).
Some may think this turns out being good for Clerics. After all, they will always be welcome in a group. However, it also deligates a Cleric into the healing role. Many, if not most of his spells will be spent on healing. This usually leads to few people wanting to play the class, but again, since it's necessary for success, somebody has to. No other class is as important or inexpendable to a group. I've seen groups do just fine without a tank or arcane spellcaster or rogue. While every class brings something useful to the table, only the Cleric brings something that is vital.
So to try and "encourage" people to play Clerics, they made them the most overpowered class in the game. Let's just stop and compare them to the Wizard, for example. Most people would assume that the Wizard should be, if not the best, at least tied as the most powerful spellcaster, since their class is so single-mindedly devoted to that role and are terribly poor at everything else. Clerics not only have at least as good of spells as Wizards, they get more of them per day, including a bonus spell of each level which, unlike a Wizard, they don't have to give up anything to have. Clerics get to wear even heavy armor and cast spells in it. Clerics have a better attack bonus. They get two good saving throws compared to the Wizard's one. They get a d8 instead of d4 HD. And now with domains, Clerics can get access to some of the best Wizards spells as well. And to top it all off, Clerics learn every spell automatically and for free, while Wizards are stuck with the handicap of a spellbook and the enormous expense and chore of finding new spells. So not only are Clerics superior spellcasters, they are superior to Wizards in pretty much every other way as well. Thanks to their buffs they can outfight fighters. They can outcast Wizards. And they can heal. They can even cheat death, which IMO is one of the most anti-dramatic things about this game, but that is a rant for another time. Clerics used to at least have the drawback of having to serve a diety, but in 3.0 that restriction was also tossed to the wind.
But yet, despite this enormous carrot hung out in a desperate attempt to lure people into playing Clerics, I've known very, very few people who actually enjoy playing the class. To me, the Cleric class represents the worst of D&D. But since they are so ingrained into the system, since everything is balanced around their existence, I'm afraid that they are here to stay.
I gave each god 6 domains, and the clerics have the powers of all.
They cast spontanously, but only know 8 fixed spells per level (i.e. on lvl 1 their 6 domain spells , CLW/ Bless if channeling positiv or ILW/Bane if channeling negative)
No hv. armor, HD d6, +2 skillpoints/lvl, Channel Energy Feat for free (from Kalamar, basicaly a specific use of turns depending on deity); clerics of war gods a exempt from this if they want.
That made the clerics of the different gods much more diverse and interesting. No healing for the bad guys. Raise Dead, Restoration, Heal and so on only avaible from gods with healing domain.
They cast spontanously, but only know 8 fixed spells per level (i.e. on lvl 1 their 6 domain spells , CLW/ Bless if channeling positiv or ILW/Bane if channeling negative)
No hv. armor, HD d6, +2 skillpoints/lvl, Channel Energy Feat for free (from Kalamar, basicaly a specific use of turns depending on deity); clerics of war gods a exempt from this if they want.
That made the clerics of the different gods much more diverse and interesting. No healing for the bad guys. Raise Dead, Restoration, Heal and so on only avaible from gods with healing domain.
