D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - or how Hiding and Stealthing combines

[Mistwell]

I also rule as Yunru does. As well as the requirement that the PC needs to be Lightly Obscured as they move in order remain hidden. Which oftentimes can be in short supply.

Not hard to do if you are a lightfoot halfling who can hide when obscured by a any medium creature.

 

[FrogReaver]

No. In my games, the cloak-wearer can only try to hide as long as the guard can't see her, so the guard's attempt to notice the cloak-wearer is not a check "made to see" her and isn't at disadvantage. It's a check made to hear or sense her by some other means and uses the guard's full passive Perception score. The cloak-wearer still has advantage on the Dexterity (Stealth) check, of course.

Just curious. Can you give a few examples times when a creature would get disadvantage to perception against a wearer of the cloak of elven kind?

Obviously in your game it doesn't come up in hiding. So where does that disadvantage to perception to see the wearer of the cloak of elven kind come up?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Not hard to do if you are a lightfoot halfling who can hide when obscured by a any medium creature.

Heh... well, if the lightfoot halfling wearing the cloak is trying to cross from the treeline up to the town wall and avoid being noticed by the guards, and it does so by having one of their party members walk in front of them first so they can hide behind him... I would certainly rule the halfling is not seen by the guards. At least, not until their party member falls down following a barrage of arrows. Then the halfling no longer has lightly obscuring terrain and its open season on them.

 

[Hriston]

Just curious. Can you give a few examples times when a creature would get disadvantage to perception against a wearer of the cloak of elven kind?

Obviously in your game it doesn't come up in hiding. So where does that disadvantage to perception to see the wearer of the cloak of elven kind come up?

It comes up when a creature tries to see the cloak-wearer and the outcome of that effort is uncertain. Because I run vision as pretty much binary, this only comes up when the cloak-wearer is on the very edge of the observing creature's visibility. So, for example, if the cloak-wearer is about two miles away on a clear, brightly-lit day with an unobstructed, unobscured view from the observing creature, or if the observing creature is on a mountain about 40 miles away under similar conditions, or if the cloak-wearer is about a mile away in an area of light rain (which does not obscure), or if both cloak-wearer and observer are underwater at a distance of exactly 60 feet, then if the question arises of whether the observing creature can see the cloak-wearer I set a DC depending on the conditions that the observing creature rolls against at disadvantage.

 

[CapnZapp]

It comes up when a creature tries to see the cloak-wearer and the outcome of that effort is uncertain. Because I run vision as pretty much binary, this only comes up when the cloak-wearer is on the very edge of the observing creature's visibility. So, for example, if the cloak-wearer is about two miles away on a clear, brightly-lit day with an unobstructed, unobscured view from the observing creature, or if the observing creature is on a mountain about 40 miles away under similar conditions, or if the cloak-wearer is about a mile away in an area of light rain (which does not obscure), or if both cloak-wearer and observer are underwater at a distance of exactly 60 feet, then if the question arises of whether the observing creature can see the cloak-wearer I set a DC depending on the conditions that the observing creature rolls against at disadvantage.

Hopefully you agree you are using sight-based perception significantly less often than the assumed default.

It's okay for sight bonuses to perception to be relatively worthless IYC, but it doesn't explain the relative power of this Uncommon item in the general case...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[FrogReaver]

Hopefully you agree you are using sight-based perception significantly less often than the assumed default.

It's okay for sight bonuses to perception to be relatively worthless IYC, but it doesn't explain the relative power of this Uncommon item in the general case...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

I'm pretty sure he's saying that the way he plays it means either you get advantage on stealth or the enemy gets disadvantage to see you. Never both.

 

[Ancalagon]

It comes up when a creature tries to see the cloak-wearer and the outcome of that effort is uncertain. Because I run vision as pretty much binary, this only comes up when the cloak-wearer is on the very edge of the observing creature's visibility. So, for example, if the cloak-wearer is about two miles away on a clear, brightly-lit day with an unobstructed, unobscured view from the observing creature, or if the observing creature is on a mountain about 40 miles away under similar conditions, or if the cloak-wearer is about a mile away in an area of light rain (which does not obscure), or if both cloak-wearer and observer are underwater at a distance of exactly 60 feet, then if the question arises of whether the observing creature can see the cloak-wearer I set a DC depending on the conditions that the observing creature rolls against at disadvantage.

2 miles!?!?! That is WAAAAAY too optimistic. Let me demonstrate

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.3653...244&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

If you look due east, you will see a tall, square building in the distance. That is Dunton Tower, and it's aproximately 3.5 km (slightly over 2 miles) away (and it is 77m tall, or over 250 feet if you prefer). It's clearly visible, but it's not particularly large... it stands out because of its shape and how tall it is.

Compared to this, a person would be but a minuscule sliver! Unless we are talking about a featurless plain with short grass, all someone has to do to hide at that distance is refrain from shooting flares.

 

[Mistwell]

Heh... well, if the lightfoot halfling wearing the cloak is trying to cross from the treeline up to the town wall and avoid being noticed by the guards, and it does so by having one of their party members walk in front of them first so they can hide behind him... I would certainly rule the halfling is not seen by the guards. At least, not until their party member falls down following a barrage of arrows. Then the halfling no longer has lightly obscuring terrain and its open season on them.

Much like the skulker feat I believe he can hide in just dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage. Are you arguing everywhere is bright light, and patchy fog never impacts a town wall?

 

[Hriston]

Hopefully you agree you are using sight-based perception significantly less often than the assumed default.

I don't think there is an assumed default for how often Perception checks that rely on sight are expected to be called for, and we're only talking about them in the context of noticing another creature. The context in which they usually come up in my games is in noticing hidden objects and clues.

2 miles!?!?! <snip> Unless we are talking about a featurless plain with short grass, all someone has to do to hide at that distance is refrain from shooting flares.

Well, that's pretty much what I meant when I said "unobstructed, unobscured view", but I don't get too much into realism when gauging sight distances. I run with the standard 2-mile visibility under clear daylight conditions. Barring intervening features or terrain, creatures are assumed to be able to see everything within that radius and nothing without except any high ground in the distance, with a very fine line of uncertainty between.

Obviously I'm not talking about a situation in which a character is hiding at that distance. If appropriate conditions for hiding were available, and a creature tried to be stealthy at that distance, the creature would be considered as hidden until such a time as an observer was within audible distance, at which point the creature's Stealth check would be consulted.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

If the observer has Keen Sight then the cloak counteracts the advantage on the WIS\Perception check.