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Cloak of Invisibility: Best item in the game?
- Thread starter Zurai
- Start date
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I too think that this is not a 'broken' item.. or even a broken combination. Its just what I would expect a 30th level demi-god to be capable of.
And since pretty much all the theoretical combat encounters are just that.. theoretical, no house rules to 'fix' this are needed.
All you need is an encounter area that has a door
And since pretty much all the theoretical combat encounters are just that.. theoretical, no house rules to 'fix' this are needed.
All you need is an encounter area that has a door
Gort
Explorer
Zurai makes a good point in this thread, in my opinion. Just because you can wrangle some kind of, "Well, as a DM I'd never let a player get away with this!" thing doesn't invalidate the fact that the rules are unclear or need to be changed.
Players can pick this item up at level 23 as well, so it's not like it's a massively expensive or "only at level 30" item.
To be honest, I think I'd like to see the cloak errataed to be the same as other invisibility - if you attack, you become visible. In my opinion, invisibility is best balanced for scouting, surprise attacks, and retreat.
What I think happened here is that the writers simply forgot to make the same stipulations about invisibility on the cloak as they did in the other occurences of the power.
Players can pick this item up at level 23 as well, so it's not like it's a massively expensive or "only at level 30" item.
To be honest, I think I'd like to see the cloak errataed to be the same as other invisibility - if you attack, you become visible. In my opinion, invisibility is best balanced for scouting, surprise attacks, and retreat.
What I think happened here is that the writers simply forgot to make the same stipulations about invisibility on the cloak as they did in the other occurences of the power.
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I do think the Cloak of Invisibility is overpowered compared to items of its level. I don't agree that it's the master stroke presented. For these reasons:
1. It doesn't make the wearer silent, thus any opponent can track the user by the sounds they make (sure, you can be stealthy to make your movement silent, but that bowstring still snaps when you loose arrows).
2. Moving more than 2 squares applies a penalty to stealth checks.
3. It doesn't make the attacks invisible, thus the opponent can see the incoming arrows and where they come from.
4. Against melee attacks they can ready an attack action against it.
5. Against intelligent opponents they can use exactly the same anti-invisibility tactics smart players might use - throwing sand, etc. - to locate the player.
Some of these are not explicitly dealt with by rules as written, but the p.42 gives suitable guidelines for setting the DCs, and high level monsters are likely to pass them.
1. It doesn't make the wearer silent, thus any opponent can track the user by the sounds they make (sure, you can be stealthy to make your movement silent, but that bowstring still snaps when you loose arrows).
2. Moving more than 2 squares applies a penalty to stealth checks.
3. It doesn't make the attacks invisible, thus the opponent can see the incoming arrows and where they come from.
4. Against melee attacks they can ready an attack action against it.
5. Against intelligent opponents they can use exactly the same anti-invisibility tactics smart players might use - throwing sand, etc. - to locate the player.
Some of these are not explicitly dealt with by rules as written, but the p.42 gives suitable guidelines for setting the DCs, and high level monsters are likely to pass them.
To get down with it:
Is the items Good?: Yes, Very Good.. Nice Item!
Is it Broken?: No, not the Least..
Is it leveled/priced inapropritately?: It seems resenable fit for its level.
Point to consider: 4e is a Team Game.. nearly seems like you cant run a proper encounter without it being a Team effort. again: TEAM TEAM TEAM TEAM. many options and realisms are removed to make it much more playable, especially for more players than 3e.
Now consider the point ---> If you try to do anything with the game thats different than the intent, of course you might end it ruin things or making them imbalanced. But for the TEAM game 4e is, the item is *nothing out of the ordinary*.. it doesn't inhance team effort in any way.
It won't ever be a problem for any game, hence its neither the best item, nor in need to be changed.
compare this to earlier discussions of "Decanter of Endless Water" from 3e. One of the coolest items to sustain a Keep... until someone said: "Ok, i flood the World, GG"
Is the items Good?: Yes, Very Good.. Nice Item!
Is it Broken?: No, not the Least..
Is it leveled/priced inapropritately?: It seems resenable fit for its level.
Point to consider: 4e is a Team Game.. nearly seems like you cant run a proper encounter without it being a Team effort. again: TEAM TEAM TEAM TEAM. many options and realisms are removed to make it much more playable, especially for more players than 3e.
Now consider the point ---> If you try to do anything with the game thats different than the intent, of course you might end it ruin things or making them imbalanced. But for the TEAM game 4e is, the item is *nothing out of the ordinary*.. it doesn't inhance team effort in any way.
It won't ever be a problem for any game, hence its neither the best item, nor in need to be changed.
compare this to earlier discussions of "Decanter of Endless Water" from 3e. One of the coolest items to sustain a Keep... until someone said: "Ok, i flood the World, GG"
Read Stealth
I believe the focus of this argument has not been on the right point. I agree that RAW as written says that Invisibility from the Cloak is not broken when you attack, however read the entry for stealth (pg 188).
Under the success section note what it is saying: If you attack, Stealth ends. (not invisibility...stealth)
Quite simply ready an action to await the Ranger to attack, your reaction will occur right after his (presumably) standard action to attack Orcus. At this point his stealth is nothing, he has total concealment (-5, oh darn) and you can now make a perception check to find the Ranger for the noise he made. Heck I will be nice and say its a conversation level noise....not even battle (cause rangers are sneaky) so DC 10 +2 assuming the ranger is more then 10 squares away. Well my math is not full proof but I bet Orcus's passive perception allows him to notice the noise at +10 so he even knows the exact location of the noise.
Another solution, I did not so fully consider was that Orcus has darkvision. One of my favorite new twists on Stealth is that if you have a light source you are seen automatically (nasty trick with the Wizards light cantrip - the new faerie fire). So Orcus puts the lights out and now its Invisibility for everyone. I would assume though, it would be possible to tweak Mr. Ranger to get him some Darkvision, but hey it's another RAW option.
I still like Mr. Invisi-Ranger's build though.
I believe the focus of this argument has not been on the right point. I agree that RAW as written says that Invisibility from the Cloak is not broken when you attack, however read the entry for stealth (pg 188).
Under the success section note what it is saying: If you attack, Stealth ends. (not invisibility...stealth)
Quite simply ready an action to await the Ranger to attack, your reaction will occur right after his (presumably) standard action to attack Orcus. At this point his stealth is nothing, he has total concealment (-5, oh darn) and you can now make a perception check to find the Ranger for the noise he made. Heck I will be nice and say its a conversation level noise....not even battle (cause rangers are sneaky) so DC 10 +2 assuming the ranger is more then 10 squares away. Well my math is not full proof but I bet Orcus's passive perception allows him to notice the noise at +10 so he even knows the exact location of the noise.
Another solution, I did not so fully consider was that Orcus has darkvision. One of my favorite new twists on Stealth is that if you have a light source you are seen automatically (nasty trick with the Wizards light cantrip - the new faerie fire). So Orcus puts the lights out and now its Invisibility for everyone. I would assume though, it would be possible to tweak Mr. Ranger to get him some Darkvision, but hey it's another RAW option.
I still like Mr. Invisi-Ranger's build though.
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